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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: Bronze Horns? |
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I see that horns are made from both copper and brass (an alloy of copper and zinc.) I also know that bronze (an alloy of copper and tin) bells (as in church bells) have far better mustical characteristics than brass bells.
Does anyone make a trumpet out of bronze or is the material too difficult and/or expensive to fabricate? Would there be any benefit to a bronze horn or at least a bronze bell (as in trumpet horn?) Thanks. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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Tootsall Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that Kanstul can (and has done) provide bronze bells, as can a couple of other makers. Whether or not bronze has "better accoustical characteristics" has to be for the listener to determine. |
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rwingman97 Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 284 Location: Rome, GA
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2359 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Sound-wise, how would a bronze bell compare to a copper bell?
I note the Kanstul 1500a (very dark tone) has a bronze bell, not copper, which seems strange to me. I thought copper was as dark as it got, but myabe not? |
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topo3man Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 408 Location: East Hampton, NY
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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There are bronze bells as stated above. Bauerfiend also makes a bronze valve section. I know this is available on one of the Stage 1 trumpets (the New York model) offered by NYTC. _________________ 1939 NY Bach Stradivarius
1948 Chicago Benge C
Bach 19037 Stradivarius
1939 Conn Cornet |
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Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 992
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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razeontherock wrote: | Sound-wise, how would a bronze bell compare to a copper bell?
I note the Kanstul 1500a (very dark tone) has a bronze bell, not copper, which seems strange to me. I thought copper was as dark as it got, but myabe not? |
Copper bells, in general, are considered darker than bronze bells. They are also softer and easier to dent. |
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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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nieuwguyski wrote: | I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass. |
Your "google" is wrong. Bronze is an alloy of copper and TIN. Brass is an alloy of copper and ZINC.
From a manufacturing standpoint (at least outside of horns), bronze is far more expensive than brass. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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nieuwguyski wrote: | I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass. |
Bronze must cantain tin or metallurgically it's not bronze. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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My point is that bronze bells (as in church bells) have wonderful musical characteristics, while brass bells do not. They sound cheap. Very cheap. Copper bells (the few that I have actually heard) sound dead.
It's interesting to hear that some horn bells are made out of bronze. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 992
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Acolyte wrote: | nieuwguyski wrote: | I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass. |
Your "google" is wrong. Bronze is an alloy of copper and TIN. Brass is an alloy of copper and ZINC.
From a manufacturing standpoint (at least outside of horns), bronze is far more expensive than brass. |
Why do people come on this forum, which is intended to share information, to bash people when they don't know what they're talking about?
HE'S NOT WRONG. Copper alloys, commercial bronze 220 (notice the absense of tin), 90% copper, 10% zinc. http://www.suppliersonline.com/Research/Property/result.asp?FamilyID=6&MetalID=1257&Chemical=1&Physical=1&Mechanical=1
Sheesh. |
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Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 992
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Edited for inappropriate content by Moderators. |
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study888 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 356 Location: Darlington,S.C.
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:47 pm Post subject: Bronze Horns |
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Hello. I may be wrong. Some of the Olds owners can correct. But I believe the later 1960's Olds Special Trumpet and Cornets has about 1/3 third of bell in Bronze. I own a Cornet of this type. The rest of bell appears to be Nickel silver. As it is white looking inside of bell. But the bell is a Bronze looking. And the whole instrument is tri- colored. With a Sparx 4B m.p. gives off a nice mellow to bright sound. Then the older Studio had the 1/3 nickel spun bell and brass and nickel silver trim etc. The newer name for such. May be rose brass. But it does have more of a bronze sheen than cooper. What ever it may be. Missed out on a Olds Special trumpet on e-bay like new. Close to same year and make as my cornet. It sold for $300.00 plus shipping. The Olds Special, Studio, and Recording's and Supers in good condition have been selling high on e-bay this month. Any how the Olds Special tri-color model is the only horn I have seen advertised as having bronze in the metal mix. Later |
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m4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 567
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:15 am Post subject: |
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I don`t know if this helps or is germane to the thread or discussion, but Blackburn offers a bell that he calls Ambronze. You can see his website for more details. m4 |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps it has to do with the way copper and bronze resonate differently. Bronze may just do better being played as a percussion instrument compared to brass, while it may not resonate as well as brass when the impetus is air vibration. |
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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. They are not one in the same, no matter what your less than authoritative source suggests. Try picking-up a text on metallurgy before commenting on this issue next time.
Edited for content by Moderators. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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jsmn4vu Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2004 Posts: 747 Location: Fayetteville, GA
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Let's try to maintain at least an outward appearance of decorum...
Acolyte to "Liberty Lips" wrote: | Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin |
Yes.
Quote: | Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. |
Yes.
Quote: | They are not one in the same, no matter what your less than authoritative source suggests. |
The metal called commercial bronze by the trade contains no tin. (As long as we're being picky, the expression is "one and the same.") _________________ John Miller
Peachtree Wind Ensemble |
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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
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jsmn4vu wrote: | Let's try to maintain at least an outward appearance of decorum...
Acolyte to "Liberty Lips" wrote: | Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin |
Yes.
Quote: | Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. |
Yes.
Quote: | They are not one in the same, no matter what your less than authoritative source suggests. |
The metal called commercial bronze by the trade contains no tin. (As long as we're being picky, the expression is "one and the same.") |
Correct. There might indeed be some sloppy slang usage within the trade of referring to brass as "commerical bronze" but that dosen't make the material bronze. It's still brass. This isn't a matter of conjecture, tradition or semantics -- it's a matter of metallurgy.
Earlier you pointed another example of the use of sloppy slang. You noted the term "lacquer" is still used to define what are actually enamel and epoxy finishes and not lacquer.
I choose the facts over sloppy slang anytime. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:11 am Post subject: |
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I hate to contribute to this, since my metallurgy class was 23 years ago, but according to my lecture notes, a bronze is an alloy predominantly of copper. When most people say "bronze", they mean copper-tin, but since Acolyte encouraged us to consult metallurgy texts, they say a bronze is any copper alloy and brasses are subsets of bronzes. e.g. the copper-beryllium alloy that Schilke used to make bells out of is "beryllium bronze"
"Commercial bronze" and "architectural bronze" contain significant zinc. So one could argue they are in the brass family. But when one is ordering metals, the goal is to get what one wants, not to be pedantically correct. |
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Acolyte Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 312 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Tom LeCompte wrote: | I hate to contribute to this, since my metallurgy class was 23 years ago, but according to my lecture notes, a bronze is an alloy predominantly of copper. When most people say "bronze", they mean copper-tin, but since Acolyte encouraged us to consult metallurgy texts, they say a bronze is any copper alloy and brasses are subsets of bronzes. e.g. the copper-beryllium alloy that Schilke used to make bells out of is "beryllium bronze"
"Commercial bronze" and "architectural bronze" contain significant zinc. So one could argue they are in the brass family. But when one is ordering metals, the goal is to get what one wants, not to be pedantically correct. |
"Significant" zinc? 1-2% perhaps, at most? And the only reason it's there is to aid processing (both in the mill and at the fabricator's shop) of the material and to reduce its cost...
The copper-beryllium alloy used by Schilke (and Ping golf clubs) is just that -- a copper-beryllium alloy. It's not bronze unless it also contains tin in a correct amount.
The bottom line is that bronze is an alloy of copper and tin and brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. _________________ Kirchnof Kazoo
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