Super Chops forum now private

[Jerry Freedman]

I have sent my stuff to Lee and I look forward to being admitted to the forum. That being said I am not sure about the wisdom of making the forum private.

Why SC and not Caruso, etc. If they all went private then TH would whither. It sets a bad example.

Its my experience ( I have been doing this kind of stuff since the mid '80s) that most newsgroups/mailing lists go through periods when flames outnumber worthwhile posts. The flames invariably subside and the group goes back to normal.

J. Freedman

[spanky]

i consider myself somewhat of an outsider. i started checking out TH a few months ago. i don't know about everyone else but when john posted in SC, i probably read a little but pretty much ignored most of it. what i did read sounded reasonable, he didn't seem to have any malice that i could pickup. i also havn't read a ton of the old threads either to seee why everyone is so touchy around here.
can't someone have a differing opinion??

can you really learn SC in the forum anyway?? from my understanding, alot of what is posted out there is bogus anyway. so why go underground?? maybe i'm naive, probably am, but shouldn't all this be out in the open??

i decided to add one more thing, might as well get everyone mad at me. a portion of us are christians here, what if Jesus would have said, "come on pete and matt, john and the rest of you. we are suffering some persecution here, let's go start our own club"?

[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-08-26 12:20 ]

[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-08-26 12:24 ]

[spanky]

i would suggest one more thing. a message needs to be put on the forum that tells someone where to contact Lee to get signed up. as it is now, you would be relying on a new person finding this thread to get in the forum.

[jgadvert]

I am a business man first. A musician second.
I've read some of the rational for making SC a closed forum. I hope you folks are making the right moves? That is a nice way of expressing my real thoughts about it.

[trickg]

I have sent my information to Lee Adams. I just hope that he thinks that I'm ok to be allowed to read and post.


Just a side not in response to Jerry Freedman. I think that the reason that the SC forum is now private is due to the fact that someone always wants to challenge Jerry, his method and what he/it stand for. I've heard of Jerry referred to as a chops guru, and I've also heard him referred to as some pretty negative things. That being said, it seems that there really is no middle ground where SC is concerned. My perception is that it is either loved, or hated, which is what started the debates in the first place and why they decided to go private. Me? I'm always open to new ideas. I'll stop being open when I become the best trumpeter in the world. (as if! )
_________________
Patrick Gleason

[ This Message was edited by: trickg on 2002-08-26 13:31 ]

[Jerry Freedman]

I don't know if can be done on TH but perhaps if the reading the forum was open but contributing was private.

J. Freedman

[Guest]

As someone who has no knowledge of the so-called Super Chops approach to playing I think I have zero bias regarding the constant conflicts that have gone on here.
I have studied with teachers who followed the Caruso methods and I have followed the Gordon approach myself after meeting Claude many years ago. Both of these methods seem valuable but at no time did I hear anything, either from teachers using Caruso, or from Mr. Gordon, that indicated to me that theirs was THE ONLY METHOD of playing.
On the question of the SC forum being private or remaining open to all members of the forum all I can say is that privatization seems to defeat the purpose of the forum as a place where trumpet,( and cornet), players may enjoy a free flow of information. Posting private information, such as email addresses, and especially phone numbers on-line is foolhardy at best and, according to many law enforcement people, very dangerous at worst.
I am sorry i will be unable to read SC information but there doesn't appear to be any other remedy that is acceptable to the SC forum people.
The real pity is that this should have been averted by simply removing those individuals who appear unable to discuss disparate points of view without resorting to juvenile name calling, illogical personal attacks, and egregious rudeness.
Let us hope this will stand as a good reason for us all to-Grow Up and behave like mature human beings no matter our ages as the forum goes on.

[_bugleboy]

Bachagain,

"Private" means "by approval of the moderator." It doesn't mean "for SC players only." My guess is that Lee would give you the clearance. Ask him.

[Guest]

Bugleboy,

Thanks for your input. However, if the conditions require posting phone number and private email address I think I'll, with some real effort, be able to keep my passion for Super Chops knowledge totally under control.

I just hope that the remaining forums can continue to be non-private and most importantly, free for honest exchange and civil discussion.

[histrumpet]

I don't think you are required to post the information for all users to have access to. Unless I am mistaken, the moderator is the only person who would have this information and would only use it to confirm you are who you say you are and not a "so-called" super chops flamer.

[Nicholas Dyson]

yeah B
Lee just needs your info on file, so if you start posting mean spirited things, he can have an accurate address to give Louie and Tony, the leg breakers.

Nothing gets posted, other than what is already there, it's just a file for Lee. No biggee.
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[Guest]

Hey Nick,
Well guess that sounds ok. However, I still don't understand how this private approach fits with the free exchange of information that is supposed to be the basis for the Herald.

It almost appears that if anyone doesn't accept criticism for an idea or approach they follow the answer is, "I'll take my ball and bat and just go home". Kinda strange to this old free thinker.

On another note, how's the club coming, and did the BAAAD Boy lend you any braff CD's?

[EBjazz]

I think it's a shame that it's gone private, although I'm sure that I'm one of the people they want to keep out.
I have no ill will for any of the superchoppers, except when they speak badly of Claude and I enjoy reading the forum and was learning something about the approach which may someday be useful.
At least maybe Lee could allow everyone to read the SC forum with needing a password to post. The software may not have that capability though.

Eb
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[William Bentley]

Eric

Just how often do the SC people talk badly about Gordon? Im having a pretty difficult time of finding this. Do you possibly mean when sometimes someone might mention that Gordon was not very into embouchure? Or when a former Gordon student like Jeff Smiley or Jeff Lambardino mentions that Gordon might not even address embouchure with them and told him the famous Gordon saying "Dont mess with the lips"
This is significant because embouchure help is what they needed and Claude was not able to give it. So does that make it bad things that they say about Gordon.

Just for the record Eric why dont you round up all of the so called bad stuff that the SC people say about Gordon and present it to me.
Then I will show you that you yourself are on record more times at saying bad things about SC than all of the so called bad things that SC folks have "ever" said about Gordon.
Go ahead and take my challenge I will even include your outrageous misrepresentation of SC that you spouted off in TPIN last year for good measure.

Look through the forum and you will find that you and Mohan have made more bad, negative, statements than the SC people combined.
As for Quad C and his so called double standard that he proclaims against SC is total not fair. I already dealt with him in the retraction thread about that.
The real double standard is being put on the SC people. Mohan a MODERATOR goes and breaks every single rule in the debate forum in order to slam and make negative comments about SC which breaks the rules of being a moderator too by the way. After he gets away with that then he goes into the SC forum causing trouble. Just in an effort to make the SC moderator slip up and get on Mohans own level so Mohan could defend his pathetic NON MODERATOR LIKE actions that are frequently being pointed out by a few people.

The total insanity in the SC forum for Mohan to claim that he knows exactly what SC is because he has read posts and in the same thread he wonders why he needs the SC book and then says he does not understand how an SC embouchure can be identified. Get ready for this quantum leap! He of course would need the book!!!!! for the illustrations and other material if he already knew exactly what SC was then why could he not identify it. The SC forum moderator already pointed it out to him. This type of typical irrational way of arguing by Mohan is seen all over the forum. Double standard you say?

1. Ebjazz trashes SC in an unprovoked attack in the CG forum. John Mohan supports ebajazz and calls it humor.
2. Mohan trashes SC in debate forum and gets away with it, clearly breaking the code of a moderator very few even bothered to argue with his unsupported nonsense.
3. Mohan continues goes into SC forum just to bait and show his utter ridiculous illogical side just to cause trouble inviting his minions to come in and agree with him in trying to discredit embouchure observations.
The primary reason of course was to try to dirty the SC forum moderator so that he (Mohan) could justify his pathetic behavior that has been being questioned a whole lot lately.Or of course to try to inflame SC advocates to get on Mohans own poor level of ethics.
Not to mention SC attacks by Locke, bachboy and others scattered around.

The double standard indeed Mohan has been allowed to get away with murder.
The SC forum moderator remains true to the rules that he agreed to abide by. Mohan has NOT.
If Lee chose putting a dedicated forum in as a private one then hats off to him.
Frankly I would not blame Lee for leaving all together after all that Mohan has been allowed to get away with as a so called officer of this website its pretty sad.

bachagain the dedicated forms are NOT a free for all like the open forum has become. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
The very reason that dedicated forums were created were so that specific methods could be focused on. Without the naysayers and scoffers disrupting the environment.
It is an outright shame that such a large number of non embouchure folks all of a sudden decided to come and ask questions about SC with virtually none of them following the advice that he moderator frequently spells out. THE SC FORUM IS BEST SERVING AS A SUPPORT GROUP FOR THOSE WHO HAVE AT LEAST GOTTEN THE SC BOOK AND UNDERSTANDS THE ILLUSTRATIONS AND DIAGRAMS AND DISCUSSIONS IN THE BOOK.
I find that to be wise because most embouchure docs use observations as a key ingredient and have forever. Why don't you lazy SC attackers go to the debate forum and prove to the trumpet world that observation is not a well known and proven means chop help.Of course FIRST YOU WOULD NEED THE SC BOOK HELLO HELLO HELLO HELLO It shows the most frequent encountered embouchures.
As well as because so many people have misrepresented SC by not getting the written illustrated materials that leaving the posts in public to continue as a feeder for those only half willing to understand SC like John Mohan and other posters(including supposed esteemed members on this website) who are too lazy to get the book and participate in the SC forum for answers.
Just wait for the moment when someone like Mohan starts attacking and all of a sudden a flood of posters pile in who are as equally ignorant about SC as Mohan.
WONDER OF WONDERS all of them could of been trying to become literate about SC much earlier but they want to jump on the band wagon all at the same time with their anti embouchure agendas and pounce on SC WITHOUT READING THE BOOK.
SC forum is a resource provided for free anyway so stop whinning about Lee's decision and register if you want in!
The only one with the right to complain is Lee anyway after all of the nonsense he puts up with!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nick needs to show more respect and quit making a joke out of this.
Grow up Nick. You know absolutely nothing about nuclear fallout in the TH forum. Posters have humored your smart mouthing off all the time about stuff that you don't fully understand or even bother trying to. I think that the SC moderator was even willing to come out and help you pretty cheap (free as I remember) If transportation could be arranged. He has done a bunch of FREE clinics where he went and worked reportedly to exhastion many times for FREE he took no door money at clinics or asked to be paid anything.
He has not asked to be paid for what must add up to many many hours of work in here at TH. I have seen him spend countless hours in emails helping people who prefer not to post about SC but they know about SC because of this forum.
Not to mention that he is known to work the equivalent of two shifts in his business. So I can't say that I would not blame him if he were fed up with filtering out profanity attacks against SC, fed up with dead beat attackers not serious enough to get the SC book, fed up with major chaos breaking out when he is out of town like last week, fed up with people not obeying his civil and courteous requests for them to take their arguing into private, fed up with the loose cannons that are all over this very forum,.
Why should I try to guess? he has already mentioned plenty of reasons here in the forum. Even many weeks before the latest rash of bashers he had posted in the SC forum that he was planing on returning to a private forum,but some people keep acting as if they have not seen it thinking that the whole going private thing is because of the recent little bash. WONDER OF WONDERS once again.

If using the SC forum is so important to bachagain then why don't you give the requested information. It's still a free exchange you have not been denied anything so slow down a minute and let your brain get ahead of your mouth before mouthing off in public how about it? If authentication of users can help to make a better learning enviroment then a private forum has done you a favor. Wow I bet you never stoped to contemplate such a concept before waggling that tongue in protest. Maybe its because bachagain might be bachboy the notorious SC flamer who was attacking the SC forum with the non stop profanity.
hhhhmmmmm Bachboy proclaimed that he would be back and that no one could keep him out.
Sounds pretty logical that the name bachagain is a clue that he was bachboy and he has returned as promised. hhhhmmmm

Maybe that is why he has such a problem with providing such a simple thing as.


email address
real name
mailing address
phone number

WB


[ This Message was edited by: william bentley on 2002-08-29 06:02 ]

[EBjazz]

Gee whiz! Sorry I brought it up.
Is it really that bad, man?
I will not take you up on your "Challenge", William because I really have nothing to prove. You win. I don't know what you won or why, but you win. I lose. I don't know what I lost, but I'm hoping someday this entire conversation actually means something to someone.
All I wanted to do was read the forum, that's all.
No need to have a cow.

Eb
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[bj]

[pair of kings]

My intentions have been just to let this all pass and stay out of it. But.... I can't.
Mr Bentley, I think you have the wrong idea about BachAgain. He has been around here quite sometime and always writes CIVIL, thoughtful, intelligent posts. I think I understand his points. I guess the part about taking the ball and bat home upset you because maybe you feel like you guys are always getting beaten up. For you to compare him to Bachboy, that is pretty low.
Many of us learned to play without SC by doing what you guys would consider foolish. Like using vowel sounds, and putting the focus on the sound or on relaxed airflow. I am not going back to rehash old posts to see who got beat up worse, but I got beat up by SCers more than once for my opinions about such foolishness. The worst thing I ever said about SC was not about SC but about those who seemed more interested in defending the system than explaining it. Some of us (Nick and myself included) have the book. I was left with more questions than answers from the combination of the book and the forum posts. I am still intrigued by it when I read about how it turned someones playing around - Tom Turner - for example. I have yet to figure out how though. I have been trying to understand certain aspects that seemed foriegn to me as in bottom lip over top teeth, tongue touching upper lip. But I am not going to abandon everthing I have learned in 30 years without a better clue of what I am getting into. I still can't seem to find out how to go from 'not SC' to 'SC'.
You have to understand that not everyone who is NOT an SCer is not hostile - and I have said it before - but when someone asks a question, it is not necessarily to be ignorant. But it is a very different way of thinking for a lot of us.
With the private forum, If I were to sign up on TH now instead of 7 months ago, I would not have the oppurtunity to find out anythng about SC to even know if it was something I wanted to find out more about. though I am still interested in gaining a better understanding of how it really works. and what I always wanted to see more of is practical stuff from people who were going through the learning process of it - not just a few who got lessons with Jerry or Lee and now it works for them. I feel like it is a private club for serious devotees only.
John is the one who aggravated you guys the most. I kept thinking everytime I saw a new post on the closed keep out thread, he was looking for trouble, and I guess he found it. Eric is not John. I have seen his posts. It has all gone around. There is only one forum private for now - still plenty of places to disagree. It is not the disagreeing that is the problem, it is the disrespect. In Nick's defense, maybe he isn't serious enough for you. I see it that he tries to keep an open mind and tries to keep thing light hearted.

I will leave it at that for now

[Guest]

Mr. Bentley

Mr. Bentley

If you had botherd to read what I wrote on the SC forum being open or private you might have seen, “The real pity is that this should have been averted by simply removing those individuals who appear unable to discuss disparate points of view without resorting to juvenile name calling, illogical personal attacks, and egregious rudeness.
Let us hope this will stand as a good reason for us all to-Grow Up and behave like mature human beings no matter our ages as the forum goes on.”

Now I don’t know how much I can dumb this down, but what I meant was,the Herald Administrator should remove, eject, excile or otherwise prevent those people who can’t be civil, are rude, ill-mannered, resort to personal attacks and name calling from polluting the atmosphere for the rest of us. That means anyone who is guilty of that behavior-no exceptions. I hope that’s clear enough for you. If that had been done, no change should have been necessary. So, if you have a problem with this—you have a problem, not I.

I should have said that I was sorry everyone won’t be able to read this SC forum information. You see, I was always under the impression that in order for learning to take place, a free exchange of information was necessary. So far as I know, this seems to be common to the other forums. Sorry you don’t agree

You then seem to have not understood my reasons for not wishing to post the required information requested by Mr. Adams. I think I said posting private information like name, address, email addresses, and especially phone numbers on-line is foolhardy at best and, according to many law enforcement people, very dangerous at worst. I don’t know how much information manages to find its way to you but here is something you need to know: one of the fastest growing crimes in the past two years is identity theft. In order for a criminal to make it work, all that is necessary is access to a computer, the ability and knowledge to use various data bases or the cash, under $200,to pay someone, or one of many corporate specialists, to do the research. What knowledge do they need to start? Just your name, physical address, and your phone number.

What can they find out? Only your entire financial information including bank accounts, balances, credit cards and card numbers, real estate information, driving records, criminal and civil court history, business and employment data, and just about anything else they might want to know.

Now if you don’t want to accept my word on this problem, here are a couple of options for you: call your local FBI or Secret Service office and ask them; if that doesn’t work for you, call your State Attorney General and ask him. Finally, if you don’t like either of those options you can send me a check for $300 and I’ll pay for a first class job and post the results here on the Herald so you can verify it. That would be OK wouldn’t it? Only I would think giving out private information on line is not a great idea.

Now for your last point. You almost made me angry with this little gem, but since you managed to characterize yourself in that group of personal attackers that don’t quite fit in I had to appreciate the humor. So here is the bottom line Mr. B, I have never posted anything to this forum under any name other than the one you see on your left. So, here are some more options for you: 1.) Prove I did. 2.) Retract your innuendo/aspersion/insinuation or accusation immediately. 3.) Do nothing and prove to everyone here that lack of integrity, inability to admit a mistake, and lack of logic defines the total depth and breadth of your character.

I’m very sorry, but I am finished with you.

[spanky]

on 8/28/02 mr. bentley wrote:

"to nick, you know absolutely nothing about the nuclear fallout in the TH forum"

you don't exaggerate very much do you. hey nick, i guess we're talking about the nuclear explosion in pakistan, 'cause i ain't heard of one stateside either.

glad i don't live in tennessee, they seem like they are kinda uptight there. they don't even serve sweet tea in restaurants, what's up with that??

just kidding mr. bentley, don't "bust a move please...." and as "GOODBOY" would say...and all that jazz

[bj]

Hello William
Judging by the post above I would suggest that this bachagain chap seems a lot more articulate than the posts of the person called bachboy.
His use of the english language seems a lot more refined and the structure of the post seems a lot more considered. Also, bachagain, whilst being more articulate and far more verbose in his post than has Bachboy, does display a lack of use of the Anglo Saxon present in the recent posts of Bachboy. Also he says he ain't bachboy - and I can't see any reason to doubt him.
The differences seem stronger than the very tenuous "bach" link but you could do as he asks and prove him wrong.
yours
Brian Jones