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spanky
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 535
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 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 10:16 am Post subject: |
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i retract in protest!!!!!!!!!
something about freedom of speech!!!!!!!
but to appease the "powers" that be,
i retract.
[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-08-26 17:43 ] |
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jhatpro
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 10204
Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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i think someone's snapping john mohan with a wet towel.
_________________
Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jhatpro
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 10204
Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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what's going on? my line about "someone snapping john mohan with a wet towel" was in response to spanky's observation ("fight, fight...there's a fight going on in super chops but i can't get in to see it.")
did someone ask spanky to retract his line? it's not the most seditious of comments, folks. and, even if it was, doesn't he have the right to make it?
this super chops private forum business is way strange, in my opinion. so what if it does provoke dispute. why put it under wraps? it's only another approach to playing the trumpet, not the theory of evolution. (come to think of it, that's been out in the open for some time now.)
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"the notes are in the horn. find them." charles mingus
[ This Message was edited by: jhatpro on 2002-08-26 19:25 ] |
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Frank was asked to retract his comment. I think 'the powers that be' understand that Spanky is a good natured sort and wasn't trying to inflame anything. But, there is no shortage of things being taken out of context, misconstrued or just plain lies in the real world...... wait a minute!! Why did it go private again?
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Nicholas Dyson
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Quadruple C
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:03 ] |
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tom turner
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 6648
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hi David,
Like you, I don't give a rip which method a person uses that gets the job done.
I believe in SC ONLY because it works for me and yes, it riles me when people act like SC doesn't work . . . and/or say that anyone who uses SC is a sub-standard player. I only speak up when things get ugly . . . but I do speak up at times like that.
INTERESTING FIGURES! . . .
I just did some research on posters from opposing pro-Gordon and pro-SC camps to see where the trouble was coming from in either of the private forums. This is interesting!
Here is a TOTAL list of posts made by the five most verbal SC advocates onto the Gordon forum SINCE ITS INCEPTION last year:
Lee Adams, SC forum moderator - NONE
Jeff Lambardino - NONE
histrumpet - ONE (7/24)
tptguy - TWO (4/9 and 4/10)
tom turner - TWO (11/26 and 11/27, 2001)
Anyone can hit "search" and read our FIVE (TOTAL) posts . . . it won't take long.
BTW, my to posts were welcoming John's forum and posting positive statements to someone who went in and challenged the credentials of all the different forum moderators.
I think all of these FEW SC advocate posts were non-hostile but I'll let others judge that.
____________________________
AND NOW . . . THE REST OF THE STORY . . .
Four Gordon advocates have entered the SC forum during the past ten days with hostile comments on three different threads. Most distressing, John Mahon - Gordon moderator was the initiator of TWO of those three threads:
John Mohan, Gordon forum moderator - NINETEEN POSTS
EBJazz - TWO POSTS
dbacon - THREE POSTS
roddy-o - ONE POST
EBJazz, dbacon and roddy-o mainly just waded in with little comments in support of JM. The only really offensive (and offensive) person was a FORUM MODERATOR.
Until the TH forums become more civil and respectful, the SC forum with be private. Now we can help folks who want help learning SC. I wish the Gordon folks well in their forum to do likewise without harrassment too.
Sincerely,
Tom |
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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The point about John Mohan, although I am surely not siding with him, is something that I think should have been dealt with by Todd, our illustrious TH System Administrator. If the system administrator cannot control the moderators he has set in place and at the bare minimum keep them from enflaming the other forums, then that's a big clue to me that that moderator is both a. uninformed about their particular role on this BBS, and b. more trouble than he's/she's worth.
Like I said in my earlier post, there is no shortage of misguidance, misinformation, lies, half truths, and just general UN-knowledge in the whole world. It is our role as humans to sort through all of this in a quest for knowledge, knowledge of things a heck of a lot more important than chops.
I have been fortunate enough to miss most of the excitment and hullabaloo that went on regarding SC, but have been back and read it. It's my opinion that there have been a lot of misunderstandings and arguements that have ensued from people mis-interpreting what others wrote. Take Zeroman, Pat Harbison and Larry Smithee. You get a couple of good natured, but misconstrued posts, and then add Zero's ego, and he starts sounding off. The difference here is that instead of just Zero, SC had 4 or 5 folks waiting the wings that pounced. PH and Larry reacted amicably. I know I wouldn't if 4 or 5 folks pounced at once.
I guess the point of all this rambling is that I disagree with SC going private, and I think making it a 'secret society' of sorts will do more harm than good. The 'evils' being sought to avoid are inherent in a lot more things than internet bulliten boards, and people deserve more credit than they are being given for 'seeking the truth'. I will still be lurking though....
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Nicholas Dyson
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Quadruple C
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:04 ] |
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Quadruple C
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:05 ] |
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spanky
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 535
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:49 am Post subject: |
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see!! this is exactly what everyone needed, an outsider to come in and get you guys talking. of course, there are some that will say that i'm a trouble maker. since i've been here, many of you who argue back and forth about the different subjects are very passionate in your belief. that's great, for i have picked up different things that have helped my playing from many of you.
this is a great website and we all love playing our trumpets, that's the point!!! so there are some disagreements, get over it. for the so-called christians on this site, Jesus said you are to forgive, peroid!!! stop being so sensitive with someone who dosen't agree with you!!!
now you can let me have it, i have my preperation "H" in hand.  |
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William Bentley
Regular Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2002
Posts: 34
Location: Nashville Tenn
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-08-26 19:46, Quadruple C wrote:
Yeah I have to agree here guys. There has been a big double standard going on for some time now. The stuff we non SC guys had to endure from their camp was 10 fold of what they are getting or have gotten, so it would seem that they cannot take what they dish out. All someone has to do is read any of the old flame fest posts to see what's going on. I frankly don't give a flying rats ass what someone uses to practice as long as he digs it and is happy. I'm into live and let live, life is too short to deal with this political bullcrap.  David
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Quadruple C
Please provide the names of the old posts that you are refering to.
Your claim that the non SC posters like yourself have had to endure 10 fold of what the SC guys have gotten?
Your claim that the SC guys cannot take what they dish out?
Quad this is the most outrageous, gross, gross, gross misrepresentation that you have concocted of all time. In fact Quad it is BOLD FACE LIE.
I have been a viewer of this forum since it began over two years ago. Why did you not mention the 8 threads that were removed because of John Mohans unprovoked attacks on SC? A convenient loss of memory just like John huh? The webmaster made it easy for Mohan to start more trouble by making him a moderator and deleting Mohan and others outrageous attacks against SC.
The SC forum was a private forum in the very begining of the dedicated forums for the simple reason that John Mohan and his gleeful bashers from the Gordon and the anti embouchure camp could not stand it because
there were so many SC posts in the open forum. The bashers would attack the SC threads totally UNPROVOKED! but the SC guys were not suppose to defend against the bashing? It soon became difficult to glean good information from the threads because of the need to sort through a bunch of John Mohan and company or Bacons attacks.
You will see complaints about this in the old posts where readers were fed up with sorting through all the crap.
Quadruple C you have the account absolutely backwards from the truth.
What is this double standard stuff that you keep echoing?
The SC forum has NOT been a place where other methods are bashed. There is completely UNPROVOKED SC bashing in the Claude Gordon forum from a few months ago.
Even more depressing is John Mohans outrageous negative slur and blast against SC in the debate forum. Mohan disobeys every single rule of the debate forum just so he can get his bash in against SC.
TOTAL UNACCEPTABLE ACTIONS FOR A MODERATOR!
Quad C did you forget this too?
The fallout from that was pretty minimal considering how outright ridiculous it was.
Look at Locke who used the debate forum to call SC crap and unnatural, look at other posts calling SC brainwashed zombies. The fall out was pretty small from that as well.
If you take the forum post for post you will find that the SC guys have been the ones who have taken alot more than they have ever dished out.
Matter of fact Quad C even in the old forum there were few if any instances where SC camp made unprovoked attacks on anyone and I greatly disapprove of your painting such a picture about SC as if it is an attack camp.
I have spent the afternoon with Lee Adams and we have been searching his complete archives of the Trumpet Herald since 2000. We are almost done and there is very little evidence for you to back up such a statement as:
***There has been a big double standard going on for some time now. The stuff we non SC guys had to endure from their camp was 10 fold of what they are getting or have gotten, so it would seem that they cannot take what they dish out. ***
Quad C the SC moderator does not blast CG? Or acting in the unprofessional manner that Mohan keeps exhibiting? Even before there were moderators and dedicated forums Lee always dealt with Mohan in a very professional manner even though Mohan had no problem in blasting Lee when Lee would back up bugleboy in certain threads.
What I see in Lee is a person concerned about keeping the SC forum educational and a deep concern to give SC a good reputation and he has worked diligently in this forum to do that his conduct is admirable and is of the finest in the entire forum. Sometimes I post only when I get fed up with the nonsense.
Some of you guys have NO idea about the price that Lee and others have paid to provide you newer SC'ers the resource that has been created here. Appreciaction for Lee and what he is doing to protect the resource is more in order than complaining about the direction that he has recently taken.
Associating a thread called "fight, fight" with the SC forum is something that does not help the positive image of SC which I know is important to many people including the SC moderator.
Not to mention the grossly misrepresented statements of Quadruple C which are the result of this silly thread.
If spanky wanted to get into the SC forum then contacting Lee would seem to me to be the most adult and "Christian" thing to do other than spread gossip for the whole world to see about a fight in the SC forum.
"Sometimes there is wisdom in council" Opening a door to the enemy is not wise.
Quad's whole intention is to paint a negative picture about SC with such statements the same way that John Mohan does.
Yeah he might half way try to appologize after he gets his butt kicked for attacking something that he knows little about but six months to a year later he will come back again asking the same questions and making his negativity agenda even bigger each time. I have to say that Quad C is following in the same shoes.
Of course Quad will scream indignation that im attacking him and try to run to the moral high ground and the anti SC camp will jump in soon enough to pat Quad on the back for telling such a whopper but just remember that you started this.
WB
[ This Message was edited by: William Bentley on 2002-08-27 16:59 ] |
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Quadruple C
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:09 ] |
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me that the Super Choppers around these parts have become so gun shy (due to various levels of conditioning) that some folks jump to full bore argument before checking to see if perhaps there was a little misunderstanding.
Think of it this way. If somethng doesn't seem right, ask a queston, in a RESPECTABLE, RESPECTFUL way. If the question-ee verifies that they meant to post the info as is, THEN you can set them straight.
As of yet, nothing is working, but I really really really hope it starts soon. This bickering is awful, both to watch and be involved in. All of our time is worth more than we're giving it credit for at this point. Sad.
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Nicholas Dyson
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spanky
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 535
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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ok, i was going to stay way out of this thread from here on out but i guess i should say something. YOU GUYS ARE NUTS!!! we're talking about playing the trumpet here, not brain surgery. you guys have some very deep resentments and for that i'm truly sorry for you. the "fight, fight" topic was a JOKE, ha, ha... 
if learning and spreading the word about SC requires you to have "enemies" and go "underground" you can count me out. I have a beautiful family and THEY are IMPORTANT!!!! if i never learn SC i could still be perfectly happy. ya, i want to get better but this whole deal is just down right GOOFY. i bet 99% of the people who frequent this site do not make a living playing the horn, but all of us want to get better. so why require a special password to get "in"??
WIlliam bentley wrote:
"gossip for the whole world to see"??
talk about exxageration
just crazy.....
[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-08-27 17:26 ] |
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-08-27 16:32, William Bentley wrote:
Quad's whole intention is to paint a negative picture about SC with such statements the same way that John Mohan does.
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This in and of itself is a gross misrepresentation. I'd advise you to re-evaluate who your friends/supporters and enemies are. Please! You are wasting valuable time chastising someone who doesn't deserve it! We all understand that SC has come under some fire, but you are doing yourself a disservice by thinking that everyone who is not a self-proclaimed SCer is against you. I for one, am NOT an SCer (although I do own the book and video, and take some of the teachings to heart) , but I would like nothing more for you all to succeed and play happily ever after.
Quad C's whole intention is just to get along, regardless of peoples approach to learning/playing. Please please please don't read anything into this.
Or, I suppose we could continue with this GENERAL way of doing things that seems to be in effect:
post 1
post 2 misconstrues what was really meant in post #1.
post 3 misconstrues what post #1 said differently, but along the same lines as post #2 did.
post 4 (from poster 1) tries to defend him/herself and support what was REALLY said in their original post.
post 5, 6, 7, etc. go on to chastise said poster for being an idiot, basing conclusions on the misrepresented information in posts 2 & 3.
This is horrible, lets please stop doing this to ourselves. We'll all be happier.
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Nicholas Dyson
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dwm1129
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 1065
Location: ... I'm lost
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Is Superchops starting to sound like a cult to anyone else...it's gone underground now, what? This is playing the trumpet. Nothing more, right? There aren't any hidden messages in the approach are there? :smile:
[ This Message was edited by: dwm1129 on 2002-08-28 00:11 ] |
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Lee Adams
Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2001
Posts: 222
Location: Atlanta, Ga
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-08-26 21:53, Nicholas Dyson wrote:
The point about John Mohan, although I am surely not siding with him, is something that I think should have been dealt with by Todd, our illustrious TH System Administrator. If the system administrator cannot control the moderators he has set in place and at the bare minimum keep them from enflaming the other forums, then that's a big clue to me that that moderator is both a. uninformed about their particular role on this BBS, and b. more trouble than he's/she's worth.
Like I said in my earlier post, there is no shortage of misguidance, misinformation, lies, half truths, and just general UN-knowledge in the whole world. It is our role as humans to sort through all of this in a quest for knowledge, knowledge of things a heck of a lot more important than chops.
I have been fortunate enough to miss most of the excitment and hullabaloo that went on regarding SC, but have been back and read it. It's my opinion that there have been a lot of misunderstandings and arguements that have ensued from people mis-interpreting what others wrote. Take Zeroman, Pat Harbison and Larry Smithee. You get a couple of good natured, but misconstrued posts, and then add Zero's ego, and he starts sounding off. The difference here is that instead of just Zero, SC had 4 or 5 folks waiting the wings that pounced. PH and Larry reacted amicably. I know I wouldn't if 4 or 5 folks pounced at once.
I guess the point of all this rambling is that I disagree with SC going private, and I think making it a 'secret society' of sorts will do more harm than good. The 'evils' being sought to avoid are inherent in a lot more things than internet bulliten boards, and people deserve more credit than they are being given for 'seeking the truth'. I will still be lurking though....
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All of the original moderators were given the same rules to abide by.
I have tried to observe them actually above and beyond most peoples ability for restraint.
Certainly I have thoughts of "nuking" certain posters when they present mean spirited postings especialy when I know that I can embarass them and show that they have provided misinformation or exagerations in their motives. However as a moderator I have declined those opportunities, and have tried to advocate and suggest arguing in email or private message when threads get turned upside down.
Sometimes an attitude of "I" can say whatever I want wherever I want has been noted as the forum has become much looser than it was around the first of the year. Im sure that for the webmaster to really watch what goes on in this forum requires many hours of filtering and as the site has grown it's harder to offer that time for something that is offered for "free" in the begining.
I take what is printed in a public place very seriously. That is why I am involved in the debate forum so that "people seeking the truth" can see legitimate debates on trumpet related issues other than a gang up of opinions by certain camps. The SC forum among other issues was being targeted almost daily with obscenity, and vulgarity by posters who showed no contact info. Luckily I am an early riser and could usually delete the stuff before at least the people in the US could see it. The only way to stop it was to require tighter authentication of users.
Returning SC forum to private is by no means an attempt to create a secret society. And is no more of a secret society than TPIN is. Im struggling to get registrations done faster. So just hang in there those who are waiting to get in.
I have made statements in the thread called (Super Chops forum now private) where I try to explain some of the reasons that has perpetuated returning to private. Also statements in the SC Forum as well.
Im trying to do the best that I can do with the time that I have to spend on the Herald. I do this for free, including the clinics that I have been invited to and have hosted. Im sorry that some are not happy with my decision to return to private. I know from past experiences over the years that lurkers interested in SC refrain from posting if they see fighting from those who make snide remarks about embouchure or SC. I have dozens of emails from such readers who would not ask questions in the old forum because so many non SC people liked to jump in the threads trying to diminish the ongoing discussion and debate over air vs chops or CG vs SC etc I have some doozies on record from back in those days This was my whole purpose of setting SC up as the very first dedicated forum here at Trumpet Herald. Those who want to learn about SC can have the best opportunity in a dedicated forum. Those who want to debate it can go to the debate forum. That's as fair as it can be.
I also know that trying to house all of the era's of Mr Callets teachings in one forum did not work out and did more harm than good for the sake of SC Forum. Too much confusion occured and went beyond the realm of what an internet discussion room could handle. So please trust me Nick the best interest for the resource is my goal and I have a little battle time behind me on how to survive on the web in order for us to have made it this far. I take it all a little more seriously than others because I was here from the begining in late 1999 and have spent hundreds of hours in blood sweat and tears taking the heat in public over a controversial method that many dislike just because of the name, days worth of time in posts, emails, phone calls, clinics, flamefests, blood baths.
A great deal of good has been done through the efforts of myself and other good posters involved since the begining.
Since going private the vulgarity, and obscenity posts have stopped at least.
And there has been many interested readers wanting access including to SC forum. Many are thanking me for making the forum private once again.
I guess im darned if I do and darned if I don't.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-08-29 02:52 ] |
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-08-27 19:12, Lee Adams wrote:
All of the original moderators were given the same rules to abide by.
I have tried to observe them actually above and beyond most peoples ability for restraint.
Certainly I have thoughts of "nuking" certain posters when they present mean spirited postings especialy when I know that I can embarass them and show that they have provided misinformation or exagerations in their motives. However as a moderator I have declined those opportunities, and have tried to advocate and suggest arguing in email or private message when threads get turned upside down.
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Of course thats what you do, because that's just the kind of guy that you are! I guess the main thing on my mind is that IT IS SUCH A SHAME THAT IT HAD TO COME TO THIS. It's so disappointing that we've been reduced to locking ourselves up to learn better, or unhindered.
So this set of guidelines that all you moderators were given - how did John Mohan's actions over the past months gel with that list?
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that it's an even bigger crime that SC has to go private to sidestep individuals that are SUPPOSED to be part of the 'family', but instead just serve to make SCers in general gun shy (especially since his actions were PROBABLY not inline with what guidelines were set out, I dunno without seeing the guidelines). It makes me sick that I keep getting sidewards looks from ordinarily kind SC people because everyone is just waiting for me (as a nonSCer) to say something scathing and mean spirited.
Quad C keeps getting jumped on, even though all of his RECENT posts have been totally and completely supportive, and basically complaining of the same things I am at this moment. I understand that there was a row that went round that he was involved with, and after spending a few hours of my own pouring over it, I came to the conclusion I posted earlier, about posts being misconstrued, and then people arguing different points until someone locks them out.
I guess the thing is (and of course correct me if I'm wrong) that SCers feel that SC is misunderstood. I think that's accurate. However, the posting styles of a few SCers have only served to foster that misunderstanding, and in some cases turn it into more than just misunderstanding. It's an ugly vicious circle. So now that SC is private again, perhaps this circle can go away and everyone can get along. I'm looking forward to the possibility, but I'm not holding my breath. 
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Nicholas Dyson
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ChopsMcgraw
Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001
Posts: 386
Location: Yuma, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Can't we all just get along? I mean really, there is a debating forum if you want to argue. If you have a dissenting opinion, voice in a logical non-inflammatory manner. If you're going to be inflammatory be damned sure you can back it up very well. Flaming for the sake of flaming on this site only perpetuates the myth that us trumpeters are ego monsters. I can see Lee Adams point of view on this, he wants a forum that is only helpful with minimal BANDWIDTH wasting comments, if he had to make it private to do it, it is only a reflection of the people that are posting on this site, sad though that may be. If you want it to be open, take the fight to the immature posters that seem to view it necessary to incite trouble. By immature posters I mean only the people that post to purposely bash and inflame, not the posters that merely offer dissenting points of view. I for one have no problem offering my true name and even phone number, my name is Elliot Speidell, I'm a senior in music education at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff Arizona, and play in the Wind Symphony, orchestra, and for some reason am lead in jazz I this semester, which is under the direction of Joel DiBartolo. The short of this post is if you want to flame go somewhere else, flames are what have caused Lee to do what he did, if you don;t like it, start dealing with the flamers. Peace Out-
ChopsMcgraw
[ This Message was edited by: ChopsMcgraw on 2002-08-28 14:42 ] |
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Lee Adams... he's done too much for everyone here already.
(Took out the dumb stuff, left the most important bit.... )
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Nicholas Dyson
Seattle, Washington
[ This Message was edited by: Nicholas Dyson on 2002-08-28 15:14 ] |
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