CSO Trumpet Section Conspiracy!!

[cronsell]

Has anyone noticed that both John Hagstrom and Tage Larson (I don't know if I spelled those right!), the new fourth trumpet, were principal trumpets in the Presidents Own Marine Band? I bet you there was definitely an influence there by the time the finals rolled around. It happens everywhere though. Not just in music. Not only do we have to be amazing players, we have to know the right people. I don't think that's unfair, just how the world and people work. That is also why I believe studying with the right teacher at the right school makes a big difference. I have a friend from high school who studied with the principal clarinetist in the Met while attending Columbia, now she sits 2nd (at 25!). I have a friend who went to Juilliard and studied with Joe Alessi. Now he sits Principal down in Atlanta (I don't know if that's official just yet) at 25. There is something to be said for the teacher's ability to teach but also the school that you attend will help you network for jobs in the future and get a chance to sub with some very good orchestras. But I digress!.......Do you think that is what happened on some level in Chicago?? Just curious to see other people's opinions on this.

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Chris Cronsell

[ This Message was edited by: cronsell on 2002-08-28 12:43 ]

[Mzony]

Without sounding arrogant I do not believe that who you know and where you have gone to school helps in winning a major gig.
Just to get to the finals of any position in music is a nameless, faceless, and arduous task. And when you do get to the finals, if you are lucky enough, you don't just play for the trumpet section...You would play for a couple of string, wind, and other brass players as an entire comitte...Not to mention the music director. Try getting personal influence past this diverse group of people...It does not work that way.
Alessi's studio get a lot of the best trombone players around because he is one of the best trombone players/teachers around. It is bound to be a winning combination and that is why many of his students dominate at auditions. Not because of politics. They simply are playing better then most everybody. I have played with your friend (in Atlanta) when he was in High School and later right before he won his first gig...and he was ALWAYS playing great. The guy is an amazing musician and a really disciplined worker as is Tage who was in St. Louis before this. It is not pure luck...or politics. It is skill and discipline and the people who are fortunate enough to get positions in this profession EARN it.

[trumpetgeek234]

HI everyone,

As far as I know, the chicago symphony orchestra uses totally fair ways to audition people. There was an article about Craig Morris auditioning versus another guy in the final round of the search for a new principal trumpet and they had a screen there and they just decided on how the players sounded. I think the same thing happened there!

I read an article about the CSO auditioning philosophy which says, that they want to make it as fair as possible to be able to detect the great talent out there. Also the ones that don't have such a great reputation.
I think the fact that those two guys served in the presidents own military band shows, that both are fabulous players. So the main reason for hiring both is their playing ability.

In fact I totally agree that having the right teachers and schools and stuff will aid in having a better career, but just because they are the BEST TEACHERS. -> their students are some of the best too, because they have the best teachers!

Especially orchestras like the CSO can't afford to hire people that are not the best on the "market".

PB

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetgeek234 on 2002-08-28 13:18 ]

[cronsell]

I may have been more sensational than I meant to be. I did not mean to say that there was or are conspiracies in Orchestral auditions. I meant the conspiracy part mostly in jest. I just wanted to talk about the parallels I've noticed and get a good response. I agree with you mzony that you have to earn any job. And your point on getting hired through a committee is well taken. I guess that it would be hard to have it work that way. But it IS still an interesting coincidence....maybe what should be noticed is that these players both have experience playing in professional concert bands where the playing can be very strenuous all the time, every concert, and that perhaps that environment is a good training ground for trumpet players looking to win jobs in ANY field. I don't know. Thanks for your insight into this Mike. I stand corrected!

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Chris Cronsell

[ This Message was edited by: cronsell on 2002-08-28 13:29 ]

[ This Message was edited by: cronsell on 2002-08-28 13:30 ]

[_Don Herman]

Phil Smith was Salvation Army. I wonder if the demands of these types of gigs (lots of playing with perhaps little sleep, or warmup, constant pressure to perform at your peak, not much help if you can't cover your part, etc.) aren't part of the reason some great players come out of them? Of course, those same demands may take some potentially great players and simply wipe them out before they can realize their potential...

At any rate, standards are so high and the audition processes so arduous, and involve so many "judges" from all sections, that I think past acquaintance with somebody in the band won't help much. OTOH, if the player is known well enough that a number of the judges have heard him (or her), I would think that might be taken into account on some level, conscious or not, at least in the early rounds, if the player on the tape is known. I do know some orchestras have the front office dupe the tapes, and/or run the machine, so the judges don't know who's on -- ever. (Save those who know the player well enough to pick out his or her sound, of course.) There are also those screens, so in the finals it all comes down to sound.

Of course, not all orchestras are so rigid. I heard of one audition where a screen was erected, in the middle of the stage. The players had to walk across the stage, in full view of all, to get behind the screen. Oops. They fixed it for the finals by having the players come out from center stage, hidden by curtains and the screens. And, some have open auditions in the sense that he players just walk out and play. Probably not for major orchestras, but I know stage bands and theaters often treat instrumentalists like the rest of the cast, where they might or might not see each other backstage but all the judges see them. The idea is to see how they do when facing an audience of critics -- do they perform, or fluff it?

Glad my toughest critic is (usually) myself...

Rambling FWIW - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[tcutrpt]

After hearing Tage play in Evansville with the St Louis trumpet section, I am sure he played well enough to win the Chicago audition. He sounds great. Like others have said, Chicago has one of the fairest audition procedures of any orchestra. From what I know, as long as you can afford the audition fee, you can audition. Quite a fair way to do it.

Matt

[bobwhite]

I was fortunate enough to advance to the finals of the recent CSO 4th/Utility audition. While it is true that John Hagstrom was present, so were about a dozen other people, including MD Daniel Barenboim. Since the CSO's policy is to vote after hearing everyone play, it's clear that Mr. Larsen won because he had the most votes when all was said and done.

The people present on the audition committee represented a widely diverse range of backgrounds and experiences. Thus, I think it's basically impossible to claim that Mr. Larsen's "Marine Band connection" was in any way a deciding factor. He played the best - that was it.

Do politics ever come into play at auditions? I'm certain they sometimes do. However, at the very highest levels I think it's quite rare.

As a final example, I'll cite that of my friend Mike Tiscione; recent winner of Atlanta's 4th/Utility position. Mike had just won a spot with the Marine Band a few months before, but had not enlisted yet or started with the band when he won the Atlanta audition. I'm sure Mike wouldn't mind me saying that in comparison to many other players in the finals with him, he was a relative "unknown". But, they liked him the best. End of story.

Don't waste a lot of energy worrying about if you're at the right school or have the right teacher. Go to the place that's right for you, and practice diligently.

[PH]

Well said, Bob.

In case you haven't figured it out, Bob White knows what he is talking about and plays his back side off.

[_Don Herman]

Nice to have solid confirmation from an insider, Bob -- thanks! - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[azbrass]

I know someone who was in the finals for the recent CSO 4th trpt audition . This person was among the last 4 that was cut down from the original 10 or so finalists . These 4 finalists played and extra 3 rounds before a decision was made , so apparently everything was very close up to that point as the committee and Barenboim could not make a choice . However, I believe that after the last round, it became more apparent who fit the best in the section ( with Mark Ridenhour and John Hagstrom - Craig Morris did not play ) . As an interesting note , in the very last round, all candidates were asked to play on stage one right after another so everyone had the chance to hear the other played . This was something that Solti used to do to decide ; that is, have everyone on stage in a line and everyone gets to play the same excerpts , and may the best person win.

Tage played well and consistently and of course, his experience certainly helped. Seems like the section was looking for something alot more stable and secure this time around and they went the extra mile to make sure they have the right candidate.

[cronsell]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who's been posting here. I initially intended to "stir the pot" just a bit and see how people felt about the subject. What I've found though is that I had quite a bit to learn about the process of orchestral auditions and the differences between how they can be conducted. I thank you all for the education!!