Trp Players that improvise..

[EBjazz]

Stirring the pot is what I do.
I play in a "rehearsal" band as we call it on the west coast.
It's actually quite good and the trumpet section is of course the best section. For those of you unfamiliar with the California scene, the trumpet section must always be the best part of the band. If it's not, your band is way messed up dude. This is not a joke. The trumpet players are always the best and must always be the best. This is the way it is.
Now look at the typical CA trp section:
Of course you have the lead player. He plays lead most of the time.
I play the "jazz" chair. And then there are the rest of them. The "section" players. That means they don't play lead or solo. They're "section" players. Last time I checked this was a "jazz" band.
All the members of a "jazz band" should be able to play "jazz". But this ain't the way it is in the fine state of California. Believe what I say. Most trumpet players cannot improvise at all and I find this embarassing. Most of them are not even into players that do improvise or have an appreciation for jazz.


_________________
Eric Bolvin
Trumpet, arranger, composer, keyboards
SF Bay Area
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/8357
http://www.mp3.com/EricBolvin
408.236.2009

[ This Message was edited by: ebjazz on 2002-01-02 16:14 ]

[ This Message was edited by: EBjazz on 2002-01-02 16:16 ]

[pedaltonekid]

I can understand why you would want everyone to be able to cover every type of part in a jazz trumpet section. Speaking for myself, I would love to be able to spend more time improvising, but with a full time job, wife and 2 year old daughter it is not always possible to devote as much time to the horn as possible. I do commit to playing an hour or so everyday to keep the fundamentals in check.

Believe me, the fact that I cannot improvise well does not detract from my appreciation of jazz music in general nor from my ability to admire an improvised solo that is well played.

I would suggest that you look at this as an opportunity to cover more solos yourself and be thankful that there are "section" players willing to cover the other parts so that you can showcase your improvisation skills as often as possible.

[Larry Smithee]

I couldn't agree more with your description. So...when do you begin sturring the pot?
Larry Smithee

[Eric M. Parise]

The path that many musicians take vis-a-vis a career, or what calls to their soul has always aroused a curiosity in me about the human mind. There are many reasons one picks up an instrument. I play, in part, because I have to express what the spoken word fails to do. To me everything that comes out of the bell of the horn is staked with ownership. Ownership of what we all possess - the ability to express unique, sensitive human thought. I wonder about those who choose not to seek out what is waiting for them in the improvisational arena. Why express yourself through the "section" parts of an ensemble, or the Concertos of another (legit players) without rewriting the entire score as is the obligation of the improvisor. I agree with your post and would add - "Never trust a [leader] that can't dance"...

[brnt99]

The only time I really feel like I am playing my trumpet is when I put the books aside and its just me, whatever is inside of me, and the trumpet.Maybe just doodle around looking for licks that seem to express something inside of me, and then expand on them. Or turn on the radio and jam with whatever is being played--jazz, classical,rock,pop-whatever.Try to relate to what the composer/performing is expressing and answer them.There seems to be some magic/extra energy in the creative process that isn't there when I am reading music.It seems to me that the whole musical education process is designed to squelch/kill creativity.You get an instructor and suddenly your supposed to turn your will over to someone else who tells you when you sound good and when you don't.He trains and moulds you into what he thinks you should sound like.Or you join a school band and you turn your will over to a conductor who tells you what to do and what to sound like. Or you go before a panel of judges if your trying to get into a school and you have to play what they want to hear--a very controlled, specific sound within a very specific tradition of music.Or you buy a book that teaches you Maggio/SuperChops etc.etc way of playing and you turn your will over to someone elses vision and experience of playing the trumpet.The whole process is one where you give up your power. The whole process at best makes you a skilled technician subjugated to someone elses creativity, or at worst a broken, house trained monkey.

[Nicholas Dyson]

I agree. Here's a thought for you...

I started my "jazz" career on the lead book, and had a good amount of success. However, my phrasing and approach changed DRASTICALLY when I started improvising.

So, there are a few schools of thought...

a section players job is to follow the lead player. All phrasing, articulation and other stylistic issues are set out to be followed, therefore the section players need not know anything, except how to climb in the back pocket of the lead player. there's your trained monkey.

However, playing in a dance band, how often do you have the opportunity to rehearse? Most of my work is sight reading, and so if the lead player changes and the section players can't react fast enough, or stay stylistically with the old lead player, you're sunk.

The more "jazzers" you have in your section will MOST LIKELY make your section better. Although, there are those "improvisors" that are so enthralled with what they are doing that they leave their ears at home...

My 2 cents.....

Nick

[Lazarus]

Hey guys! I like the discussion about jazz and improv that is taking place here, but let me be devils advocate for the other side:

Just because music is legit or written out, doesn't mean there is no emotion and that it is dead. Yes, I love improvising and it really lets me create a style all my own. But look at Philip Smith! If you purchase one of his CDs (I can't remember which one, I'll try and find the name of it), you find that he trys to explain what he is feeling before he starts playing so that you know what it is he is actually playing. If you said he wasn't playing with all of himself, you'd be...well wrong. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to come off as an authority...by no means! I'm just saying that to say legit music is not expressive or is boring because it is written out, is to cut it a little below the bar. You are reciting and playing a piece of history! We get the chance to do what historians can only dream of. We get to create a history whether it is fresh of the composer's shelf or if it was written in the 17th century.
I also must be an advocate for the "section players" as you have called them. It almost seems that they are discussed here as firewood. Just like you have a low brass section in symphonic bands that backs you up, these players set you up. They let you create what you will and that should never be underappreciated. Granted I know that your section doesn't sound particularly motivated (which is very sad as you have stated)...don't worry my section is like that too! In an ideal jazz setting though, it should flow like this and the trumpet section is greatful to each other whether they are the one playing triple C's or the ones backing the cat up so that he can rip away. Everything has a place and a time.
Thanks for listening to me rant. Remember I am being an advocate... keep cool...

Sincerely,
Stephen

[Nicholas Dyson]

Lazurus:
I appreciate the other point of view. Lets take the Phil Smith example to the next level...

just as orchestral trumpet players practice excerpts in order to better understand how they work, a jazz player has to understand how things work on a jazz gig.

The only way to truly appreciate how phrasing of a jazz line is done is to do it. There is no amount of book learning that can substitute. The same goes for legit.

I would have to amend your comment about re-writing or re-creating history a little to make it jive with me. I think a legit player is charged with the task of re-gurgatating history. He is charged with trying to find the music in notes and phrases that are already written down. An improvisor is charged with taking a form (or maybe not!) and creating something new with it. Listen to Bix Beiderbecke and Randy Brecker play "Autumn Leaves". Now that is re-creation!

If we were to liken this situation to literature, the performer would be reading from an already published tome. On that level, a legit player playing jazz would be the same as someone who knows english inside and out, and has mastered all of the appropriate consonants and vowels getting up and trying to read in french. Many of the syllables (notes) are the same, but the way they are approached is different, and in a language our english student is unfamiliar with. This is true of jazzers playing legit also.

I think the reason I think improvisation is so important is that figures in a big band is basically written out and harmonized solo.

How would it sound if you got an African, a Swede, an Italian and a German together, gave them books and asked them all to read aloud in english?

I think improvisation is also important in the classical realm also. Guaranteed, if you can improvise a tune over a Bach Flute Concerto, you will be better off and have a better understanding of how Bach is put together.

I know this post is weird and jumps around a lot, but my main point is this:

I believe it to be important that for better and more musical performances, whether it's legit, jazz or a jewish wedding, the players need to be fluent in the language that they are using. True fluency is only gained when an understanding is reached through improvisation in that vein. Basically, you can't learn french by speaking english and vice versa.

Jeez, sorry about all of this, hopefully it's not too disjuncted!
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 14:18 ]

[tom turner]

Hi Eric,

This is an interesting post you started! As the leader of a big band plus a player, I've come to appreciate the different types of trumpet players and what they prefer to play.

Section players can actually be a blessing in a band, for they are team players most motivated by contributing their valuable part to the "whole." They are also rock-solid . . . the first to the gig and the last to leave once all the grunt stuff is completed. I call 'em the "steadys." They truly do not want to stand out, and they are the glue that holds many a band together. As I will write in a minute, just because a player loves the third and fourth books doesn't mean they can't be a monster player . . . just a different mind set!

The soloist players usually have the best tone and march to a different drummer . . . hearing different things musically. They are usually your emotional players. I call them "expressives" and they endure the section work just for the high that comes from playing solos. Emotional, they usually crave attention.

Then, of course, there's the lead man. Usually a "take charge" type with tons of confidence, they like being "on top" in everything they do. I call 'em the "assertive" types. Many have the finesse of a sledgehammer, yet a great one can sure get attention . . . sometimes even more so than the jazz book soloist.

I played in a Flordia big band on a New Years' Eve gig with a wonderful "section man." He's a rock solid, highly educated musician with a marvelous ear. He blended so well, with a fat, gorgeous tone, sure sight-reading ability, impeccable intonation, style and precision. Man, what a blessing he was, and I told him that too!!! His sound on third trumpet was so wonderful and IMHO, it really made the trumpet section sound super nice! The cat could sing!

My psychological make up does not lend me to being content as a section player but it is sure nice when you can play with a real gem of a section player! His quality of tone and musicianship anchored the section and allowed me to play some of the richest lead work I've ever done.

IMHO, I think its wrong to single out one part or the other as less important. Thank God people like to play different things!!!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[Nicholas Dyson]

Well rendered Tom!!!!

I guess I should clarify what I was TRYING to say. (sorry I did such a poor job!)

I wasn't trying to communicate that I think all the section players should be chomping at the bit to blow the solo book, but I think that it would be safe to say that these guys who have "impeccable style" can also get around (to a certain extent) when improvising. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think the ability to improvise (even just a little) creates more freedom to understand phrasing and solidify the "impeccable style".

Where do all of you stand???
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[tom turner]

Hi Nick,

Sorry if I misunderstood. Actually, for some crazy reason I decided to defend the section guys after a few of the previous comments seemed to degrade these players.

I've played with really fine section players and others that were terrible, as I'm sure everyone has. Ideally, the band will have good talent on every book, with the section guys waiting for their chance to work up to the two premier books.

Particularly in volunteer, community and church groups it is common to have some poor players just "hangin' on.," for one doesn't have to be a fine player to enjoy playing music in a fine group . . . and the better the group is the MORE the poor player enjoys playing in it!

Also, I've known some super fine trumpet players (classically trained legit guys . . . including with doctorates) who sounded like an opera singer singing Joe Cocker tunes in a jazz band . . . terrible. Most of these guys can't improvise at all, yet drop a piece of complicated classical music in front of them and they play it perfectly like a machine!

I know a couple of guys with doctorates down in Florida who have persisted in playing big band music to develop their versatility and are really starting to sound "right" now! It CAN be done!

As far as improvisation, most people who "improvise" really don't know what they are playing--its just a string of notes and a few "pet" licks in specific keys that they always do . . . sort of like trying to have a conversation in a foreign language when you only know a few words and then repeating them over and over.

Gee . . . that reminds me of a "true" story . . . and maybe it is!!! Savannah, Georgia is a big port city near where I live. And the story came from there. Here it is:

A big container ship is reputed to have docked there a few years ago crewed by Turkish sailors. Three of them wanted to see Washington, DC but neither spoke nor read any English.

The first mate of the ship took care of renting them a car and explained to them, in their language, that all they had to do was head north on I-95 until they arrived in Washington, and then return to Savannah via I-95. He told them if they got lost to tell someone, "Savannah Beach" and the American could point them back on the right direction.

Well, they enjoyed Washington immensely. Things went well until they were pulled over by a North Carolina state trooper for speeding on I-95 returning to Savannah.

They ended up in jail, for every time the trooper would speak to the Turks, in an ungent, agitated voice the sailors would all shout "SAVANNA BEACH!" . . . and you don't say that to a North Carolina trooper and get away with it! The first mate had to bail them out of jail . . . with an explanation.

I know people who swear its a true story! Sorry to pull this post off subject.

Tom

[Lazarus]

Well said Mr. Turner! Right now I switch between lead/2nd chair player. I love to improv, but my director likes me to take lead sometimes. Most of the times though, I find myself on second part, not because I'm better than anyone else, but because no one wants to improv. I have to admit that I was scared to death when I first started, but now its fun! I really dig the flow and personal expression of it all. However, if I were to play with any of you guys, or players that can really rip it, I have no question in my mind that I'd be a section player, just because I know that is where I could get the job done. Most true jazz players can accomplish any of the parts the way they are meant to be, but it takes common sense to know where you are best suited. Like Mr. Turner said, there are three types of players but if you happen to have two lead guys or two 2nd trumpet types, the honorable and smart thing for one of the guys to do is to step down and become a section player. And when he does this, he should know that it is not really a step down but a step in another direction. You become the guard of rythm and beat. You set him up, and if you don't do your job he is the one that looks bad, not you! Thanks guys, I appreciate all your posts, I am truely honored to be able to talk to you all like this!

--Stephen

[tom turner]

Hi Stephen,

All of us, at some time or another, will be required to step up or down to another part. Also, each of us will encounter jobs where we are . . . and are not the best and/or preferred top player.

It is to your complement that your band director is also having you do some lead work. This means that your chops are developing well in the upper register and the experience will be quite valuable. Your maturity to be willing to "step down" if needed to a support player is also a plus in your favor. I know grown adults who have trouble doing this!

When I was the solo trumpet in one of the Army bands years ago I played the ride book in the jazz band--my preferred part in a big band. In the Army there seemed to be plenty of people who could play high but the improvisational skills were not as widespread. I think this mirrors the professional trumpet world in general too.

Now, 25 years later, playing usually in bands that are at best "semi-pro" groups (of serious but not full-time musicians), I find myself increasingly being hired to cover the lead book. Paradoxically, in a "semi-pro" group where most players don't practice as much, there are more "improvisers" and less folks who have the chops and endurance to blow lead all night.

Frankly, I'd personally rather play the ride book, for I could probably play "forever" on second and not get tired . . . and be super-fresh when it came time to "burn" a solo. However, there are still lots of solos in the lead book too to keep my interest, and it is a rush to play lead all night and finish strong.

Try to play all the parts! Each has its own rewards. The lead guy gets to "lead" and soar, the ride guy gets tons of solos without the stress of also playing high all night. The third player needs possibly the best ear of all . . . for the "brown" notes and awkward to "hear" intervals are written in that book. Also, the fourth part is truly a "rush" for a player with a strong, rich sound of exceptional volume who can anchor the section with a really full bottom!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[Pedro]

I think Tom hits it right on the head! There is a lot of fun to be had in playing the different books in the band. I've had the opportunity to play at one time or the other, all of the books. The points that Tom makes in somewhat analyzing what you can get out of each book, are great points and my views exactly! I have fun leading, I like to support a good lead player and I like to "blow changes"! Thanks Tom for your insight and analysis.

[BeboppinFool]

Getting back to Eric's original point about "most trumpet players cannot improvise at all" and he finds that "embarrassing."

I have been living in NYC (this time) for close to 3 years. We, too, have rehearsal bands, and it's rare to find a person who *can't* improvise. The thing that continues to freak me out is the number of incredible "jazz" trumpet players who also have lead trumpet chops. There was a time when you *either* played lead or jazz or section, and there were pretty distinct differences.

Now it seems that every chair is expected to be able to perform in every capacity, and that's when *I* am the one who's the embarrassment!

I have been simultaneously trying to develop lead *and* jazz chops for years, and I have a great deal of trouble making significant progress in both at the same time. And if I forsake one in favor of the other, well . . . one area always seems to be suffering.

I do, however, agree that lead trumpet players with an interest in improvisation and who listen to the great jazz trumpet soloists are usually the best lead trumpet players, from a stylistic standpoint.

Conversely, I don't think that to be a great jazz player you need to be listening to all the great lead players . . . although it can really be awe-inspiring, and often depressing (well, for those with no hopes of ever playing lead, it *can* be depressing).

And there you have my 2¢ worth. Oh, and real quick, if you want to sound like a bebopper right away, take a look at "I'd Rather Be Boppin' Bop Duets." You can get them at http://www.boptism.com. Later, folks!
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[Larry Smithee]

WARNING! Endorsement to follow:
Hi Rich,
I wanted to let you know that I recently bought vol. 2 of your bebop duet books and one of your jazz cds as an experimental purchase and really am enjoying both. Your a real player. I have one suggestion. It would be nice to see an bebop etude book with additonal or multi choruses based the changes of well-worn jazz standards, similar to your duet books (maybe a little more challenging). Yes, I know there are some out there already, but not enough. Anyway, great work. I highly recommend Rich's stuff everybody.
Larry Smithee

[dbacon]

DB

[NCTrumpet]

Lazarus,

Sorry to interrupt everybody's discussion on jazz. Very interesting. What Phillip Smith CD are you referring to in your earlier post? Is it the Orchestral Excerpt CD on Summit Records? Are there others? Thanks.

John C.

[BeboppinFool]

First of all, thanks Larry & Dave! It's nice to post and have people say something nice for a change. There are other forums where I post, and feel like the invisible man, so this is a refreshing switch!

Now, Dave, you asked a bunch of questions. Being that this particular thread is about jazz improvisation, maybe I'll start new ones, at a later date, based on the themes you suggested.

Keeping with the topic of improvising jazz, however, I can say that Doc Reinhardt was behind me all the way in my improvisational endeavors. He urged me to follow some sort of regimen of routines daily, however, before taking time to "just blow," and that still seems to help me spend more time building, and less time tearing down.

And he was very vocal about forgetting mechanics when it's time to make music. Unfortunately, many of his students obsessed about mechanics, and took that onto the bandstand with them. Reinhardt never encouraged that. His theory, essentially, was that if you do some correctional procedures daily and then go play gigs the way you think that you usually play, eventually the corrections will take over and become part of your natural way of playing.

That is a big part of why improvisation used to tear me down the most, and often still does. For one thing, those rapid inhalations when you're "just blowing" and not thinking about mechanics can cause a beating to your embouchure. You end up hiitting yourself in the mouth every time you breathe if you haven't taken the time to develop mouthcorner inhalations that don't disturb the embouchure setup.

My recent tour with Maynard was, overall, a very educational experience. If you want to read a little something about it, go to:

http://www.maynard.ferguson.net/willey.htm

Having played for Maynard, I know now what I would do differently if I ever do another tour with him, which ain't likely. One thing I would've done differently (which I can't change now) is that I definitely would have taken my bass trumpet with me. A little time spent on that daily does wonders for my trumpet chops!

My small group recordings can be found at:
http://www.boptism.com

Incidentally, a big thanks to Eric Bolvin who is the one who suggested that I start visiting The Trumpet Herald. Eric is a good man, even if he doesn't have his afro still!

Take care!
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz