Classical Schools of Music

screamertrumpet · Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2001 5:10 pm Post subject:

Guys,

My dreams of going to MSM are, well, kind of shot. I finally figured out that the Manhattan School of Music is more of a jazz school.
My teacher recommended three schools:
1. Juiliard
2. Eastman
3. Some college in California which I can't recall the name
What do you think? I was kind of either leaning towards Eastman or the California college. Thanks,

Trevor

Yoinks · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 258

Well, I'd go for Eastman if you can get in. No offense, but you and everyone else on the planet who plays trumpet would pretty much jump at the chance. Not to mention, I hope you are rich, or good enough to not only get in but get a full ride as well.

Murray · Regular Member Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 94

The Manhattan School has the advantage (or disadvantage) of being located in New York City - one of the Music Capitals of the World. Vince Penzarella teaches there. Opportunities to play are available outside of school, although you will have to look for them. I went to Juilliard myself and would NOT recommend this school, for many reasons. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any conservatory, since one tends to come out without an education, both musically and otherwise. You could go to a University located within a city, study the trumpet privately, and play with all of the University's ensembles, while taking classes in other subjects as well. Believe me, in the conservatories you end up hanging out, practicing, but doing little else. I know that this isn't what you want to hear, and I'm sure that you will ignore my suggestions, but what I'm saying is the truth. The classes in Juilliard were a big waste of time.

kjb · Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2001 9:07 pm Post subject:

Classes at conservatories tend to be what you make of them. Almost everyone involved with a conservatory understands that the main purpose of the institution is to turn out performers. Deciding between a university and a conservatory is 100% a personal decision. Know that at a university, much of your time will be spent away from the horn, in lectures or labs. It's also a possibility that you will be playing with a marching band. That works for some, but not all.
But at a conservatory, the majority of your time will be spent in a practice room or in a rehearsal. Conservatory is a trade-school. It is a place for players who are sure that they want to be a musician, and who know how difficult it is to make it in the music business. Conservatory is not for the faint of heart. The classes offered at conservatories are there in an attempt to create well-rounded musicians. They better serve, though, as an annoyance. It is very difficult to leave a conservatory with an "education", whatever that means to you. If it is your desire to be well-versed in the Greek myths, and to discuss the psychology of education, keep your nose in a book. It is very easy to get good grades without actually learning anything.
This is also true of the university. By the time a student enters college, there aren't teachers double-checking your homework before you hand it in, or calling your parents when you miss class. If homework isn't done and classes are missed, the school isn't concerned. They simply throw the student out.
If being a well-rounded academic is of primary importance, get thee to a university. If becoming a top-shelf, but narrowly foucused player is more what you have in mind, a conservatory is the place for you.
College of any kind in any state or city will never meet your expectations. The institution has been romanticized for a long time. In reality, you can be a success wherever you go. It's only a matter of damned hard work.

Good luck,

kjb

[ This Message was edited by: kjb on 2001-12-31 00:11 ]

Murray · Regular Member Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 94

KJB, I agree with your last statement 100%. However, I still think that the majority of conservatories are a waste of time. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the idea of a conservatory is in itself a waste. The fact is, that the majority of classes are a joke. The best theory and ear training classes were at 2 different State Universities that I attended. One of the theory classes was exceptional. All of the classes at Juilliard were terrible. Let's put it this way: What I ended up learning at Juilliard had nothing to do with the actual classes. I learned about how to try and deal with other musicians and their egos. And how to weasel my way into opportunistic situations. I regret not having gone to a University. Maybe going through a "conservatory experience" helps you to prepare for the real life world of playing professionally..it's hard to say. I can say, without any hesitation, that Juilliard didn't do what it was supposed to do, that is, give me a conservatory education. Sorry, I don't buy the "you get out of it what you put into it" line. I experienced excellent classes in the State U., yet was utterly disappointed in Juilliard.

kjb · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2002 2:50 pm Post subject:

Murray-

I agree with your statements reagarding classes. If you want academics, go to a university. If you want music, go to a conservatory, though that's not true in all cases. Each school has its strengths and weaknesses. Know yourself and what makes you happy. It's very important to make the most informaed decision you can regarding continuing education. It can either be a great experience, or a complete disaster. Just be sure of your desires before you commit to a school.

Cheers,

kjb

PH · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2002 7:55 am Post subject:

In theory this conversation is correct. However, In the US many of the best and most competitive music programs are at universities that have the best of both possible worlds (musical and academic).

Some schools that fit this description would be The University of Southern California, The University of Cincinnati, The University of Texas, the University of North Texas, Indiana University, Northwestern University, and tons of others. Although not every one of these schools is good at every style (who is?), the quality of trumpet teaching, the level of music making in the ensembles, and (in most cases) the competition for admission is on (or in some cases above) the same musical level as most conservatories-and also provides the academic possibilities of a major university.

Also, you can meet girls that aren't musicians (a major selling point)!

Yoinks · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 258

Yeah, don't date girls that are trumpet players as well. It's like dating your sister. You know what they say, don't mix business with pleasure!! LOL!!.....

.....But then, which ends up being the business, and which the pleasure in the end??????

[ This Message was edited by: Yoinks on 2002-01-07 04:04 ]

kjb · Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2002 9:32 am Post subject:

Gentlemen!

If you woul really like to have a great discourse on "Dating female Trumpet Players" or "Dating Musicians", let's please start another line. I'm sure I could give you great feedback on that topic, being a female trumpet player. However, if you choose your school based on the dathing pool, you are doing yourself and the institution a great disservice. Make your decision based on facts!

Cheers,

kjb

Yoinks · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 258

Hey, firstly, I was just kidding. And! It goes both ways! As a female trumpet player, I would probably advise you to steer clear of dating a guy who plays trumpet.

Also, starting a line, in order to discuss this, would probably be asking for a lot of trouble, wouldn't you agree???

kjb · Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:15 pm Post subject:

Of course you were just kidding. I, too, would not date a trumpet player. It would indeed be like dating a brother. I jsut thought that the progression from colleges and conservatories to dating was kind of odd. Quite a digression!

Cheers,

kjb

Murray · Regular Member Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 94

KJB:

I think that you missed my point. I think that a conservatory could be an excellent place to get a musical education, in addition to being a place to learn how to play the trumpet. However, nowadays, they tend to be places where people spend 4 or 5 years practicing, and end up learning how to play, sometimes very well. What people DON'T learn, and what they should have learnt, is how to be a good musician, so that they can play well not only in a practice room, but also with other people. More often than not, a player coming out of a conservatory can play all of the orchestral excerpts, but has no idea how the actual piece sounds. When it is time to actually play the piece, he or she doesn't have a clue. Not to mention the fact that he/she hasn't been trained in the conservatory, with adecuate theory and ear training classes on how to listen. This is my main beef with the conservatories. They are just places to take lessons, practice, and play in ensembles. Many times, these musicians don't even realize what they haven't learned. Musicians that have naturally good ears will learn how to listen just by playing with other people, and by being willing to play with them. Other musicians, some of whom might be very fine players, might never develop sufficient skills to be able to occupy a major symphony. This is where the conservatory failed. Musicians should be willing to devote time to learning music theory and ear training/solfege. In the long run, they won't be sorry!
On 2002-01-01 17:50, kjb wrote:
Murray-

I agree with your statements reagarding classes. If you want academics, go to a university. If you want music, go to a conservatory, though that's not true in all cases. Each school has its strengths and weaknesses. Know yourself and what makes you happy. It's very important to make the most informaed decision you can regarding continuing education. It can either be a great experience, or a complete disaster. Just be sure of your desires before you commit to a school.

Cheers,

kjb [/quote]

kjb · Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:25 pm Post subject:

Murray:

Unfortunatley, I am about to graduate from one of the conservatories that you have described. Also, it seems to be the nature of the conservatory beast to be lacking in critical areas. it is of primary importance to develop the whole musician, including the theorhetical knowledge and the ear, as you mentioned. It is not uncommon for the conservatory curriculum to only require a minimum of music classes, like harmony, ear training, and music history. Ideally, the conservatory would require four yers of harmony, ear training, history, and other music-related classes. However, I believe that administrations find it hard to achieve balance with the students. If a student is spending four hours a day in the practice room, four hours in rehearsals, plus classroom time, it's difficult to find a spare minute. many students in conservatories believe that "extra-musical" education, such as theory or ear training, is merely an added bonus in their musical education, not a staple.
Again, it is unfortunate that conservatories aren't able (or willing, possibly) to graduate more than mere practicing machines.
This being said, it is my statement that an aspiring musician take all of the information about universities and conservatories and make the best decision for himself. Sadly, there isn't a utopian institution out there, waiting to pay for an incredible education.

Cheers,

kjb

sm070 · New Member Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 10

I received my undergrad and master's degree from a State U and I have no beefs whatsoever from it. The benefits are endless! I was treated with respect from all the faculty from my brass faculty to the voice faculty. Second of all I could play in any situation I wanted to from marching/pep band to orchestra and small ensembles that accompany choirs and guest artists. The biggest benefit I had was the opportunity for real world experiences by playing in a professional orchestra and brass group. This is where I learned the most important skills of not only playing my horn but BEING SOCIAL!!! They say it's not what you know but who you know and it's hard to realize but it is true. It does help if you know some people and you can't get that from being trapped in a practice room for 4 years and not finding out where the gigs are. My trumpet teacher was very beneficial for me by getting my name out there and I can't thank him enough.

My advice is go to the State U for an undergrad (possibly in music ed because you never know!!) and if the conservatory bug hits then go and get a performer's certificate or do graduate studies.

308WIN · Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:53 pm Post subject:

Murray,
When did you go to the 'yard? Who did you study with? I went there too and find your experience to be the complete opposite. Yes, there are deficiencies of a conservatory education, but as a fellow poster said " you get out what you put in..." (or something to that effect) is true. N.Y. can be overwhelming to a green behind the ears 18y/o, which is precisely why many teachers (including mine) don't think it a wise idea to go as a freshman. As far as the classes go, the teachers are world class BUT they're not going to shove things down your throat (except ear training <g>). I've seen many friends come in as "the talented" freshman etc. and try to ride that reputation only to be surpassed by harder working players. I know of the "practice monsters' you speak of and many have jobs, many don't, but most of them are excellent musicians and definitely know the pieces they are playing. It would be hard to excel in a conservatory/good music school and not. What happened to you there that made you resent them so much? I just a little curious when someone starts flaming a school/person/whatever.
Later,

308WIN · Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:54 pm Post subject:

Murray,
When did you go to the 'yard? Who did you study with? I went there too and find your experience to be the complete opposite. Yes, there are deficiencies of a conservatory education, but as a fellow poster said " you get out what you put in..." (or something to that effect) is true. N.Y. can be overwhelming to a green behind the ears 18y/o, which is precisely why many teachers (including mine) don't think it a wise idea to go as a freshman. As far as the classes go, the teachers are world class BUT they're not going to shove things down your throat (except ear training <g>). I've seen many friends come in as "the talented" freshman etc. and try to ride that reputation only to be surpassed by harder working players. I know of the "practice monsters' you speak of and many have jobs, many don't, but most of them are excellent musicians and definitely know the pieces they are playing. It would be hard to excel in a conservatory/good music school and not. What happened to you there that made you resent them so much? I just a little curious when someone starts flaming a school/person/whatever.
Later,

brassmonkey · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2002 7:28 am Post subject:

So my main question is for everyone. I am at a state school right now and love the teacher but dont particularly care for all the bull classes that I have to take outside of the music building and waste my time, when I should be practicing. So I started looking into some other school for graduate work. Now I need to find the type of schools that would throw in the best parts of both worlds for me and I was going to see if anyone had any ideas about the better teachers out there.
Notice I said better teachers, because like someone said earlier its about what you make it, and as long as I have a good teacher, I can accomplish the rest.
please let me know some great schools out there. Thanks guys.
Josh

PH · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:01 pm Post subject:

You should know that as a graduate student almost anywhere you will take virtually no non-music classes (unless you elect a non-music field for a minor or something). This is true almost everywhere.

Pat · Veteran Member Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 396

I have a daughter who plays the flute, is a junior in high school and is considering studying music. (I know this is a trumpet forum, but I think my question is relevant here) She is actually being discouraged from considering a school like Indiana because it is so large and she will not, as an undergraduate, get the opportunity to study with the big-name teachers. It has been suggested to her, by her flute teacher and others, that she consider a smaller school with a good flute instructor who can and will give her alot of attention. She can then consider a bigger "name" school for graduate studies.

As a parent I thought Indiana would be a good place because its a good school, she could keep her options open and its in Bloomington. (about a 6 hr drive from home) Of course, now she won't consider it.

I am sure trumpet students have to make the same kinds of choices. Any thoughts?

PBTpt · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:38 am Post subject:

Pat,
I think your daughter recieved some bad (and incorrect) advice. I am an IU grad. and just about every one I can remember studied with a faculty member..even as a freshmen. The only exceptions I can think of were singers (they let too many in!) and a few music ed. kids that couldn't play(and didn't make much of an effort to change that). When she is accepted she can call the flute teachers and get assurance that there is a spot for her in the studio.
IU is a great school..the fact that it's big is offset by the number of performing opportunities and the great players attending. Looking back I was glad I never listened to the people that told me it was "a factory".