DB

tom turner · Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:59 pm Post subject:

Hi Dave,

I too would welcome that . . . but don't count on it!

John didn't get booted because of slandering Pops McLaughlin on the "Fundamentals" forum (as just a teacher of third graders and having materials people should not buy) . . . and he didn't get booted because of slandering Jerry Callet once again on the Superchops thread on the "Fundamentals" forum (saying "Buyers Beware").

No John got booted because someone got a lawyer on Todd's tail because of the continual slander of people who stand to make, or lose, their entire livelihoods on the internet (including Pops AND Callet. Slander in a public forum is serious business and has truly hurti the livelihoods of several people in the last year!

Would the world REALLY be better if Callet closed shop . . . or Pops couldn't help someone progress. No, the world would be better if people didn't slander others . . . especially in the trumpet community!

And no . . . the double standard is now free to flourish . . . and since John is no longer an officer of the TH forums it lets Todd off the legal hook PROBABLY for being responsible.

For instance, I posted a very blunt response to John on the Superchops thread in the Fundamentals area last night. Todd whacked my post within an hour . . . yet John came right back in and called Kyle a LIAR! Of course, John's post remains. Same old, same old!!!

Some folks read my post while it was still there (only a fragment remains now), and one non-SC guy e-mailed me saying "These are the funniest two paragraphs I have ever read on the forum!"

I also e-mailed it to some SC guys. Gee . . . maybe I ought to go post it in the private SC forum where I can express myself as bluntly in private as John is allowed to throughout the forum.

Yes . . . the double standard IS still alive and well . . . and now Todd doesn't have to TRY to keep Mohan on a leash.

What a mess!!! I'm truly sick of it!!!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

trumpetherald · Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 5:02 pm Post subject:

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

tom turner · Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:20 pm Post subject:

bj · Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:35 pm Post subject:

Hi Todd
You seem to be between a rock and a hard place my friend, good luck.

Hi Tom. If slander has taken place then surely the law courts are the place to settle it. Yes Todd is off the hook as you put it as John Mohan is I am sure, big enough and man enough to stand behind what he says. If he is wrong, then I am sure your legal system will take him to the cleaners. But has any slander taken place?
Much has been made for example of John saying that Pops is a school grade teacher, (sorry I can't remember what grade). This isn't slander. Has nobody stopped to think that teaching young children is way harder than teaching say well motivated college kids?
I have taught both at university and rank beginners and I say that teaching college students is way, way easier than teaching kids that hardly know how to tie their shoe laces yet. Although this may be intended as a slight on Pops (although I don't know if John meant it that way). It is no slight on anyones' ability as I can tell you teaching young children is much harder than teaching the sort of polished product that usually arrives at university.
just a thought
Brian Jones

tom turner · Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 8:17 pm Post subject:

Hi Brian,

Hope you are well, waaaaaay across that big ol' pond.

I could say a lot on this matter but, because the system moderator has removed one of the highly offensive posts . . . AND . . . because this issue needs to die down for the good of the forum, I'm going to refrain from saying anything that may further tension on this matter.

HERE'S SOMETHING MOST EVERYONE WILL AGREE ON . . .

The forum, IMHO, needs to be a civil place where people can discuss helpful issues with others in an atmosphere of respect, fairness and lack of ego trips.

IMHO it should also be a place where people should not put down the ideas of others . . . especially if it could impact their chances of making a living.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2002-09-21 23:24 ]

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:22 ]

bj · Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 12:54 am Post subject:

Hi Tom

Amen to that one, I am right with you. No one could argue with that.
Of course you do know some posters on TH will but the sentement couldn't be better expressed or more wished for.
yours
Brian Jones

Welk · Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 12:58 am Post subject:

I think i missed something...Who is John Mohan and what did he do?

Jeff Lambardino · Regular Member Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81

bj · Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:44 am Post subject:

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:23 ]

walter · Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 6:37 am Post subject:

Brian wrote, regarding John Mohan's posts:

"Reactions to his posts normally fall into 3 categories.
1.- Great
2.- He's the devil, stone him.
3.- Phew! that was a bit unsubtle."

I guess that I fall into a 4th category that I feel many others also fall into:

4.- John has interesting things to say, and whether or not he's correct, the process of academic challenging any idea serves everyone, including the person being challenged. We advance together when we not only accept the challenges of others, but we do a favor to others and help others to advance by challenging them.

I've studied 2 forms of martial arts: Tai Chi Chuan and Akido. In learning self-defense, if either "opponent" doesn't seriously challenge the other, then the other gains only a false sense of confidence. The same goes with ideas. If nobody seriously questions your ideas, then any imbalances or weak spots remain unchanged.

When I challenged some of what Lee Adams and others first wrote about SuperChops here at the Forum, I was doing so from my experience and perspective. I had enough respect for him to believe that he could answer the challenges that I put to him. In return, I was challenged. That's OK; but in some cases. others bashed and flamed me over issues that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I've taught at the college level, and have learned to separate the emotional over-reactions of challenging students from the essence of their arguments. Often, a legitimate idea can be found within an insanely provocative argument.

It soon became clear to me that I wasn't going to be able to vigorously, but seriously, challenge SC players here at the Forum IN AN EFFORT TO LEARN AND TO CLARIFY ISSUES. The emotional climate was over the wall, and I too, was accused of slander. Most people aren't lawyers [Thank you, Jesus!], and they can't distinguish slander from expression. Often, the threat of a lawsuit is enough to frighten people into submission ... something that I fear may have happened with Todd. I am afraid of this because of what Tom Turner brought up earlier in this thread.

For many months, I've been concerned about Tom's reaction to John's writings. I have enormous respect for Tom ... and not just because he's a fellow Wild Thing fan. Tom is also a very religious man. He is a Christian, and I'm agnostic [one who doesn't know, from the roots of the word: "a" = not, and "gnostic" = knowledge]; yet I've often been moved by what Tom says from his Christian viewpoint. My inner Buddhist sentiments lead me to an acceptance of opposites, and as a teacher, I've often vigorously taken totally opposite positions on issues. Ideas that aren't challenged often remain undeveloped and sloppy.

I also totally respect John. His approach to an idea resonates with me. Still, when he first mentioned Claude Gordon's ideas about air speed, I just didn't think he was right. In the ensuing debates he had with others, I started to consider the possibility that CG might be correct. I'd certainly heard from both Doc Reinhardt and Doc Severinsen that tongue arch affected pitch, but I hadn't related the arch to increased air speed ... even though the effect of a curved surface on the speed of a fluid is well established in physics. That's why airplanes fly.

Fortunately for me, I was able to gain more of an understanding of and appreciation for SuperChops ... but not within the Forum. I had to purposely, on my own, go outside of the Forum to gain any respect for this legitimate approach to trumpet playing. I even went to a performance of a respected SuperChops advocate in order to hear what the big deal was. I came away with a reaction similar to Patrick Gleason's: the guy I heard had a high register, but his timbre just wouldn't be acceptable in any situation that I play in.

Getting back to John Mohan and Todd's dismissal of him as moderator.

John falls in with the best of the tradition of challenging ideas. Whether we look at the Jewish tradition of debating the Talmud, the Greek tradition of academic dialog, or the Tibetan Buddhist tradition of argument, the result is a raising of the level of understanding of the issues involved. These traditions, developed independently in 3 cultures, represent a high point in humanity's development of the intellect. Just as we applaud a trumpeter who has busted his/her butt to rise to a higher level, we should applaud trumpeters who seek to advance the state of the art by thoroughly examining the ideas floating around in the trumpet world. Isn't that what Callet did?
A way to counter someone else's argument is to take the focus away from the argument and attack the person who is being argued against. This has a particular emotional appeal, and it is used successfully every day in all types of contexts. It can be very tricky to recognize ourselves using this tactic, and it is a sign of dishonesty and sometimes immaturity. For the spiritual among us, this is also immoral, and a soul-searching for the motivation to do this is in order. Since this tactic is so powerful, it is often employed as an "end-justifies-the-means" weapon.
As I read Tom's account of a slander lawsuit being behind John's dismissal, it was easy for me to recall that the groundwork for this action had been laid by many of John's detractors. Accusations of slander by John have been sprinkled throughout past posts, and although these accusations were groundless and ridiculous to anyone familiar with the legal standards required of such a legal challenge, the threat of a lawsuit is daunting.
Lawyers in the US don't have to seriously believe that the merits of a lawsuit are justifiable. The threat of a lawsuit becomes an economic threat, because the threatened party must defend him/her-self ... at a cost. Unscrupulous people get their way every day, simply by making trouble for and creating an expense for others. Frivolous legal actions aren't compensated for without great cost to those offended. If this has happened in this case, may the souls of those responsible for and condoning/complying with the guilty rot in hell. There is no "justice" here in the US for this type of situation.
The end result here on the Forum is the silencing of expression ... the antithesis of what a forum is about.
Because of the way this whole affair played out, I have no idea of whether or not to believe Todd. I can only say that I no longer trust him; but who cares about that. I hope that in the long run Todd will improve the Forum.

In the anger that I felt a day or so ago, I felt that I didn't want to contribute to the value of this website. I'm not a big guy in the trumpet world, but I've learned lots from others. I've read the writings of many fellow trumpeters who are struggling with problems that I've long since gone beyond. I've shared my experiences and points of view, just as many others have, in an effort to pass on what was helpful to me.

With the distrust that I'd developed, I decided to remove the content of many of my past postings. If Todd can spontaneously, and without prior discussion, take the actions that he has ... especially when people of good will can disagree ... I feel that I can withdraw my contributions.

I don't know how I will ultimately feel about re-entering this community. I'm giving myself time to ... I don't know what.

I offer my best wishes to those who come to this site with honesty and good will, and that includes people just like John Mohan and Tom Turner ... 2 sides of the same coin. Even though they disagree, I think that each one is a person of integrity.

walter

William Bentley · Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:19 pm Post subject:

Walter posted

"As I read Tom's account of a slander lawsuit being behind John's dismissal, it was easy for me to recall that the groundwork for this action had been laid by many of John's detractors. Accusations of slander by John have been sprinkled throughout past posts, and although these accusations were groundless and ridiculous to anyone familiar with the legal standards required of such a legal challenge, the threat of a lawsuit is daunting. "

WB: Walter please point out for me exactly where all of these "accusations" of slander are sprinkled. Aside from Tom Turners statement above.
Please assist me in finding all of the posts which contain accusations.

Regards
WB

[ This Message was edited by: William Bentley on 2002-09-23 22:33 ]

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 15:24 ]

walter · Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2002 5:14 am Post subject:

Mr. Bentley- I think that you'd like to bait me into an argument, and I'll let my reputation for accuracy stand up against yours anytime. Besides being a waste of my time, I believe that much of the material that you're requesting lies buried in the locked vault of the SC sub-forum. Do your own research. Also, a search for "proof" might be akin to a search of Saddam Hussein's ever-changeable location of weapons.

Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. If the focus of your writings will consistently remain to challenge people's integrity instead of ideas, then I, for one, will simply ignore what you have to say.

Parts of this Forum are looking like Sherman's march through the South. Nobody wins that type of war.

walter

spanky · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Jul 2002 Posts: 535

ditto walter!!!!!!!!!

William Bentley · Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:28 pm Post subject:

histrumpet · Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:06 pm Post subject:

Walter,
I think to "agree to disagree" with William Bentley would be acceptable to him. Before that can happen you may have to finish what you started here, if you can. I doesn't seem that you desire to "agree to disagree" when you take a parting shot at Mr. Bentley as you end your last post. The ball is in your court.