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no trumpeter in romantic period able to play Brandenburg


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_TrumpeT_
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: no trumpeter in romantic period able to play Brandenburg Reply with quote

I have read that no trumpeter in romantic period could play the trumpet part in Brandenburg Concerto no. 2. Was this because of the range required? I have also read that some of the great cornettists who lived in the same period had incredible ranges. Then could they have played the concerto since most of the techniques required are interchangeable?
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trpt.hick
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am certain that many of the great cornetists during the late 19th century and early 20th century had the chops to play the Brandenburg #2. However, the music would have been rather difficult to find.

The Brandenburg concertos were not published until a society led by Schumann, the Bach Gesellschaft, began a huge project to publish all of Bach's works in 1850. It wasn't until 1900 when all 60 volumes of music were completed. Even then, only a relatively small number of sets were sold. The music was contained in large encyclopedic-type books and could not be performed without copying out parts.

In 1900, the Neue Bach Gesellschaft was born with a mission to make playable sets of scores and parts and to have Bach's music performed in festivals across Europe.

I am not sure who was the first trumpeter to perform the Second Brandenburg (it was certainly not Reiche as first professed in Don Smithers' dissertation. . . an error he later recanted), but I am fairly certain that the first American performance was given by Louis Davidson with the Cleveland Orchestra. Lou told me that he could not find a piccolo F trumpet, nor any reasonable B-flat piccolo. He had an instrument made (in F) from an old B-flat trumpet, cut down to F, with a bell off of a "Shriner's trumpet"!!!! He said it needed several alternate fingerings, but it got the job done. Knowing Davidson's superb musicianship (he was one of Herseth's idols as a kid) I have no doubt that he played it beautifully.

Perhaps Ole or some history geek will know who gave the first performance (which was during the 20th century, I think)?

Dave Hickman
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gringoloco
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked at the Riemensheider Bach institute When I was in college. They have all of the complete collected editions (including the original Bach Gesellschaft). It's pretty incredible to see the work they did back then. That was practically the birth of musicology.
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nextbrassguy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once found a website (I couldn't find it just now ) that gave a fascinating history of the piccolo trumept which, if I recall correctly, included material on early performances of the Bach B minor Mass and Brandenburg #2. If anyone comes across this page, I'd sure like to see a link to it.

trpt.hick wrote:
I am certain that many of the great cornetists during the late 19th century and early 20th century had the chops to play the Brandenburg #2. However, the music would have been rather difficult to find.


I'd like to hear more on this. The Brandenburg goes to high A on a Bb horn, and much of the "received wisdom" from the time, especially Arban, discouraged high range playing. Also, I believe I read somewhere that cornets and cornetists were generally unwelcome in "serious" orchestras, where they were too closely associated with the "popular" music of the time. Finally, I'm reasonably sure that the website I referenced above mentions early performances of the Brandenburg #2 on the Bb horn an octave down.

trpt.hick wrote:
The Brandenburg concertos were not published until a society led by Schumann, the Bach Gesellschaft, began a huge project to publish all of Bach's works in 1850. It wasn't until 1900 when all 60 volumes of music were completed. Even then, only a relatively small number of sets were sold. The music was contained in large encyclopedic-type books and could not be performed without copying out parts.
...
Dave Hickman


Again, I think I read that there were performances of the Brandenburg #2 during the last half of the 1800's on the Bb horn an octave down.
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trpt.hick
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nextbrassguy:

If you find a reliable source about an early performance, let me know.

The original question asked whether there was someone CAPABLE of playing the Bach during the 19th century. My answer was yes. There were several cornetists that could play up to double high C. Some of the recordings and published solos by George Swift and Albert Couturier went much higher than the Brandenurg.

DH
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nextbrassguy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.hick wrote:
Nextbrassguy:

If you find a reliable source about an early performance, let me know.

The original question asked whether there was someone CAPABLE of playing the Bach during the 19th century. My answer was yes. There were several cornetists that could play up to double high C. Some of the recordings and published solos by George Swift and Albert Couturier went much higher than the Brandenurg.
DH


Point well taken. "Capable of" and "encouraged to" or "welcome to" are certainly different things. I'm with you: I'd sure like to see a good source on the history of trumpet/cornet design and performance, say 1850-1900.
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oj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Reine Dahlquist, there was at least one trumpeter in the midle of 1800 who could perform Bach's music, Friedrich Benjamin Queisser (1817 - 1893). He performed (first trumpet part of the) B-minor Mass in Leipzig in 1850.

In 1859 the Christmas Oratory was performed in Berlin. It is believed that Julius Kosleck (1825-1905) played the first part. He became famous for his ability to perform Bach's trumpet parts.

The first performances of the Brandenburg Concerto in the original instrumentation were by Theo Charlier (1868-1944) on a high G trumpet in 1898 and Alphonse Goeyens (1867-1950) on a high F trumpet in 1902.

In England, players like Thomas Harper senior (1786-1853) and Thomas Harper junior (1816-1898) played the Handel trumpet parts ("Let the brigh Seraphim", etc.) They both used the slide-trumpet.

Ole

P.S.
Paul Mobus, performermed Brandenburg #2 (on F trumpet) in Oslo, Norway, March 5, 1907. Edvard Grieg was present at the concert.
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oj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention that in 1890 there was a performance of the Brandenburg #2 in Gewandhaus, Leipzig. Franz Petzold (alternating solo trumpet) played the trumpet part. It is believed that the trumpet part was played an octave lower than written.

The first recording of this concert was in 1932, Paul Sporri (1909-1982). Sporri was solotrumpet in Berlin Phil. 1927-1943.

Ole
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Leedorham
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was anyone performing Baroque music on Natural Trumpet during this period? I know it was not the instrument of the day but that does not mean there couldn't be throwbacks just like today. I would be interested to hear any history on that.
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trpt.hick
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ole,

YOU DA MAN!

Great information. Thanks.

Dave
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gringoloco
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No kidding. GREAT research. Props to Ole.

Be well,
Rob
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oj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leedorham wrote:
Was anyone performing Baroque music on Natural Trumpet during this period? I know it was not the instrument of the day but that does not mean there couldn't be throwbacks just like today. I would be interested to hear any history on that.


Not really. I already mentioned the English tradition with "Zug Trompete" (slide trumpet). This trumpet had no valves, but the slide helped in changing pitch. As we know Bach wrote a few works for Zug Trompete.

The first recording of Brandenburg #2 on natural trumpet was done by Walter Holy. Based on the Hausmann painting of Gottfried Reiche a trumpet in F (today this equal a tuning of E) was built. It was a student and trumpet colleague of Holy, Helmuth Finke, who made the trumpet in 1959. With this trumpet, Holy recorded the second Brandenburg Concerto with Hanoncourt in 1964. More (picture, sound clip) here: http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/holy/

Ole
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oj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The revival of Natural trumpet playing came rather late (I've already mentioned Walter Holy).

Thanks to some makers, (Egger, Monk etc.) who studied old instruments and started making copies, it became possible for players to start playing and to re-discover playing techniques This revival made it possible for people to hear how music sounded (or may have sounded) - by composers like:

* Giovanni Gabrieli (the cornett - the wooden Renaissance trumpet)
* Johann Sebastian Bach (the natural or baroque trumpet)
* Joseph Haydn (the keyed trumpet)

First generation players:

* Walter Holy (German - the first pioneer)
* Don Smithers (American)
* Edward Tarr (American - lives in Europe)
* Michael Laird (English)

Second generation players:

Players in this "generation" have in addition to being tamers of the baroque trumpet also started playing the keyed trumpet.

* Friedemann Immer
Immer is the person who have performed Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 most time on a natural trumpet.
* Mark Bennett
Bennett is also a specialist on the natural trumpet. He lives in England and studied with Michael Laird.
* Reinhold Friedrich
Friedrich was the third person to make a recording using a copy of the instrument that was used by Weidinger in 1800.
* Crispian Steele-Perkins
Steele-Perkins recorded Hummel on a keyed trumpet in 2001 - on a CD called "Classical Trumpet Concertos"

The first "revival" performance on the Keyed Trumpet was done by our own David Hickman! He performed the second and third movement of the Haydn Concerto on a keyed trumpet in the spring of 1972 at the Wichita State University (WSU) in Kansas. He was accompanied by a pianist. The keyed trumpet in Eb was borrowed from Gerald Endsley (who had built it).


Ole

P.S.
The division into first & second "generation" nat. players are stricly mine. Serious historians would problably dislike this
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_TrumpeT_
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your great information.
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Bob Parks
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a bibliography I used recently to do a research paper on the performance practice of the Brandenburg #2. I got an A!. Read these if you'd like an exhaustive answer. Get ready to translate a little German.

Don Smithers "Bach, Reiche and the Leipzig Collegia Musica." The Historic Brass Society Journal, vol. 2 (fall 1990)

ITG Journal feb. 1991 (p. 5 - 17) - article by Timothy A. Collins "Gottfried Reiche: A More Complete Biography"

Altenburg, Johann Ernst. Essay on an Introduction to the Heroic and Musical Trumpeters’and Kettledrummers’ Art (1795). Translated by Edward H. Tarr. Nashville: Brass Press, 1974

Barclay, Robert. "Some Bubbles *****'d: A Discussion of Early Brass Mythology." In
Perspectives in Brass Scholarship: Proceedings of the International Brass Symposium, Amherst, 1995, ed. Stewart Carter, 71-8. The Historic Brass Society Series No. 2. Stuyvesant, New York: Pendragon Press, 1997.

Bauguess, Barry. "The Historical Brass Movement." Brass Ink: The Newsletter of Brass Society, Inc. 1, no. 2 (1990): 1-3.

Decker, C. F. “Trumpet research: a selective bibliography.” The Instrumentalist 27 (May 1973): 56+

Fasman, Mark J. “Brass bibliography: sources on the history, literature, pedagogy, performance, and acoustics of brass instruments” Bloomington, Ind. : Indiana University Press, 1990

Güttler, Ludwig. "Das Corno da caccia bei Johann Sebastian Bach, unter besonderer Berücksichtigung seines Einsatzes in der `Quoniam'-Arie der h-Moll-Messe." In Johann Sebastian Bachs historischer Ort, herausgegeben im Auftrag des Forschungskollektivs "Johann Sebastian Bach" an der Universität Leipzig von Reinhard Szeskus. Bach-Studien, 10. Wiesbaden and Leipzig: Breitkopf & Härtel, 1991.

Hall, Ernest. “Bach’s trumpets.” Monthly Musical Record 61 (1931): 78

Haynes, Bruce. "Cornetts and Historical Pitch Standards." Historic Brass Society Journal 6 (1994): 84-109.

Heydenreich, Johann Christian. "Ein Trompeterzeugnis aus dem Jahre 1762." Das Orchester 37, no. 5 (May 1989): 513.

Menke, Werner. History of the trumpet of Bach and Handel. Reprint of 1934 English translation by G. Abraham. Nashville: Brass Press, 1985

Naylor, Tom L. The trumpet and trombone in graphic arts: 1500-1800. Nashville: Brass Press, 1979.

Schlesinger, Kathleen. “Bach’s trumpets.” Monthly Musical Record 61 (1931): 108-109
Smithers, Donald L. "The Music and History of the Baroque Trumpet Before 1721." 2nd ed. Carbondale and Edwardsville: Southern Illinois University Press; Buren, The Netherlands: Frits Knuf, 1988

---------. “The Baroque trumpet after 1721 - some preliminary observarions. I: Science -and practice.” Early Music 5, no.2 (Apr. 1977): 177-183
---------. “The Baroque trumpet after 1721 - some preliminary observarions. II: Functions and use.” Early Music 6, no.3 (July 1978): 356-361

Solomon, John. “Bach’s trumpets.” Monthly Musical Record 61 (1931): 43-44

Tarr, Edward. "The Trumpet." Translated from the German by S.E. Plank and Edward Tarr. Portland, Oregon: Amadeus Press; London: Batsford, 1988.

Urban, Darrell Eugene. “Gottfried Reiche; notes on his art, life, instruments, and music.” Monthly Journal of Research in Music Education 1, no. 5 (1966): 14-55


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cdaigle
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ole,
Really great information. The Holy recording is really quite good, thanks. I'm glad I ran into this sight.
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Michael1638
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone!

I apologize for not reading through all of the posts on this subject. I saw some good information!

A long time ago I did some research on the subject. I put my paper online:

http://www.wikyblog.com/michaelrocor

I hope this is helpful for someone.
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why did Bach write a concerto that nobody (at the time) could play? It doesn't make sense.
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
So why did Bach write a concerto that nobody (at the time) could play? It doesn't make sense.


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Michael1638
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not convinced it was not playable in Bach's time. You're right, it doesn't make sense.

Thurston Dart postulated the part was intended for "Tromba, o vero corno da caccia" but this would put the part an octave lower than written. I believe there was a player, possibly even Reiche, who could have played it or had the required skill. Remember the portrait of Reiche holding a "Jaegertrompete?" It's impossible to say if such an instrument was common or not despite the famous painting as the only surviving such instrument was destroyed during WWII by allied bombing.

A feasible answer to the question "trumpet or horn?" might be that on occasion Bach allowed for a performance of the work incorporating a horn instead of a trumpet. The German name "Jaegertrompete" (hunter's trumpet) for a trumpet which was coiled, and looked like a horn, may have been mis-translated into Italian as "Corno da caccia" (hunter's horn), and thus the debate began.

Here is the conclusion to my paper, in case you didn't get a chance to read it. Remember the research presented here dates from 1978. A lot has changed since then.

Case Study: The Second Brandenburg Concerto

Bach may have taken into account Johann Ludwig Schreiber’s trumpet playing ability when he wrote the second Brandenburg Concerto in high F. Charles Sanford Terry identified trumpeters Schreiber and Johann Christoph Krahl as regular members of theKothen orchestra between1717-1723. 53[Terry pp 5 & 6]. Fredrich Smend identified Schreiber as first trumpet of the Kothen orchestra. 54[Fredrich Smend, Bach in Kothen (Berlin, 1952) 25, cited in Smithers 126.]. The first performance of the second Brandenburg Concerto may have taken place at Kothen, where a performance of the first Brandenburg Concerto in F is indicated by the pay records for two "Waldhomisten" (horn players were not regular orchestra members) on January 6, 1722. 55[Terry 7.].

In Bach's time the trumpet part, although it is the only one to that date pitched in high F, would not have caused insurmountable difficulties. Altenburg knew of trumpets in F and G used by the French and English, but they were not used in the clarino register as extensively as the German D trumpet. 56[Altenburg 12.]. In Bach's autograph score the trumpet part, following the usual custom, was written without sharps or flats. 2009 note: i.e., a transposing part.. This may have given the trumpeter a psychological advantage, since he concerned himself only with the 18th partial (which was within the normal range) rather than with the pitch: g. Aside from the high tessitura of the trumpet part of the second Brandenburg Concerto, there were no unusual demands for a good trumpet player.

But the high tessitura of the trumpet part of this concerto has been a problem for trumpeters since the Bach revival in the nineteenth century. Although specific performance dates, places, and players are not available, an outline of the performance history can be made by noting those occasions for which high-pitched valved trumpets were made. The earliest high-pitched valved trumpet thus far identified was one in high F of 1850. 57[See pages 9, 11 & 12 above.].

Advances in high-pitched trumpet design and manufacture have helped the aspiring player of the second Brandenburg Concerto, and it is now included in the standard repertoire for many symphony orchestra auditions. The trumpet manufacturer Vincent Bach advised young trumpet students to practice the high-pitched valved trumpets during their conservatory years and gradually work up to the piccolo Bb/A trumpet to avoid embouchure damage. He also cautioned experienced players to not attempt playing the second Brandenburg Concerto on short notice. 58[Vincent Bach, "Who can play the Second Brandenburg Concerto?" The Instrumentalist v. 15 September 1960, pages 94-96.].

A performance of the second Brandenburg Concerto hinges upon the availability of a trumpeter who can play the part. If the trumpeter at hand could not play the part as written, it has sometimes been played an octave lower, as was the case in phonograph recordings by the Centennial (Boston) Symphony Orchestra led by Serge Koussevitzky (RCA Camden CAL 147), 59 [Nathan Broder, The Collector's Bach (Philadelphia & New York: J.3. Lippincott Company 1958) 165-166.] and the London Baroque Ensemble led by Karl Haas (Westminster XWN 2211). The Eb clarinet has also been recommended as one alternative instrument if a high-pitched trumpet player is not available and the thought of lowering the part is displeasing. 60[William S. Casey, "A Practical Guide to the Performance of the Brandenburg Concerti by Amateur Groups" (Un-published M.A. Thesis, The Ohio State University, 1943) 9.].

Soprano saxophonist Marcel Mule recorded the concerto with the Prades Festival Orchestra led by Pablo Casals in 1950 (Columbia ML 4345 - O.S.U. #LH 290), and again a year or so later with the Pro Musica led by Otto Klemperer (Vox Set 619 and LP VLP 6180). 61 [F,F. Clough & G.J. Cuming, World's Encyclopaedia of Recorded Music (London: The London Gramophone Corporation in association with Sidwick & Jackson Ltd. 1952).]. The recordings by a saxophonist in the early 1950’s were more likely the vehicle for an exceptional performer than an indication of the lack of able trumpet players; for at about the same time Roger Voisin recorded the concerto with the Boston Symphony led by Serge Koussevitzky DB 6764/5) 62[Clough & Cuming.].

In more recent times [1978] the concerto has been more favorably approached on record. There are many excellent recordings which use modern high-pitched valved trumpets. 63[Maurice Andre recorded it many times: one currently available at a very good price is with the Paillard Chamber Orchestra- RCA CRL2-5S01.]. Walter Holy, Edward Tarr, and Claude Rippas have recorded it using natural trumpets in the coiled form. 64[Walter Holy, with the Concentus Musicus of Vienna, Harnoncourt conducting: Telefunken Das Alte Werke SAWT 9459/60-A. Edward Tarr, with the Collegium Aureum: RCA Victrola VICS 6023. Claude Rippas with the Leonhardt Consort: ABC Classics AB 67020/2 (includes a full facsimile score).]

Bach's second Brandenburg Concerto in still the cause for debate among scholars. The late Thurston Dart suggests that the high trumpet part in question might really be for horn in F, judging by the words "Tromba, o vero corno da caccia" which he says are on Penzel's manuscript of the trumpet part. 65[Bach, The Six Brandenburg Concerti- the "original version" Philips 6700 045. Liner notes adapted from sketches by Thurston Dart by Eric Smith. The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, Nevilie Marriner conducting.]. A feasible answer to the question "trumpet or horn?" might be that on occasion Bach allowed for a performance of the work incorporating a horn instead of a trumpet. The German name "Jaegertrompete" (hunter's trumpet) for a trumpet which was coiled, and looked like a horn, may have been mis-translated into Italian as "Corno da caccia" (hunter's horn), and thus the debate began. However, when Bach labeled a trumpet part he very rarely used anything but the Italian word "Tromba", though others used the word "Clarino", which is the proper indication for a register rather than a specific instrument. 66[Terry 23.]. This, and the phonograph recordings by Holy, Tarr, and Rippas using soft-toned natural trumpets, support the theory that Bach fully intended for the part to be played by a trumpet in high F, possibly a coiled trumpet.


Conclusion

Paul Hindemith, Thurston Dart, and Edward Tarr urge players interested in the full value of baroque music to go to the instruments of the period to understand how the music might have originally been played. Those who do choose to use authentic, or nearly authentic instruments are often leaders not only in sound but also in the elements of style (articulation, ornamentation, and phrasing) which give the music a baroque identity.

The orchestral trumpeters’ survey replies concerning the difficulties encountered with natural trumpets reveal technical limitations of playing these instruments. Without the mechanical aid given by a valve mechanism, for example, a seven foot natural trumpet is more difficult to trill on certain notes. Accuracy is a great problem for most modern players, who have the distinct disadvantage of many years of formal training with modern valved trumpets prior to their involvement with natural trumpets; this may be a psychological, as well as technical disadvantage.

The trumpeters of the other stream, the players of modern high-pitched valved trumpets, enjoy, for the moment, a technical advantage over those who play the natural trumpet. They also have a great many more recordings on the market. Even so, the players of natural trumpets have the advantages of tone and style. Holy, Tarr, Smithers and the other great players of baroque trumpet are influencing those who do not play authentic instruments. In growing numbers, trumpeters now, regardless of instrument type, are influenced by the discoveries and practices of those who play natural trumpets.
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