Wet/Dry Embouchure?

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 1:32 pm Post subject:

I have a trumpet student, who I am fairly sure has a type IIIB embouchure. He has always played on a dry embouchure, in spite of having a couple of teachers try to change this. I've mentioned the advantages several times to him of playing on a wet embouchure, but he is extremely reluctant to change.

He have frequent problems with chapped lips and sores on his lips. This past week he has been going through another bought of lip trouble, which I feel may be at least made worse, if not caused, by his dry embouchure.

I've showed him what the "Encyclopedia" says about this, but I'd like to get the opinions of others here to show him. What personal experiences do you have with a wet versus dry embouchure? Do you feel it would be in this student's best interest to change to a wet embouchure? If so, what type of things should he be practicing to help his switch?

Thanks!
Dave
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walter · Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 12:13 pm Post subject:

Hi Dave- Sores on his lips? And that's not enough to convince him to go wet?

Does the guy lubricate his valves and slides? Does he lubricate his car? Why bother?

He's probably developing minor friction lesions on his chops, which then become inflamed and possibly infected . . . leading to the sores.

Doc had me wet my chops, then apply A&D Ointment, which is used for diaper rash. If a brass players chops don't deserve the same degree of care as a baby's butt, then that player ought to consider becoming a percussionist, where he/she can bang away on his/her sound generators without much worry.

walter

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:48 am Post subject:

I like Walter's reply. That makes so much sense that any knucklehead oughta be able to see the logic.

When I went to Doc I was playing on a dry embouchure and Doc asked me how long I'd been carving that big chunk of meat. You see on my upper lip there was this big, swollen, protruding impression of the rim of the mouthpiece. He told me he didn't even have to watch me play to know that it was caused from playing on a dry embouchure. He proceeded to tell me about the evils of twisting and winding up that I'd likely experience in later years if I continued to play dry.

But he really didn't have to tell me all that because I had already decided I was going to do everything he told me, although I'm glad he did tell me.

So I set out right away lubricating my embouchure as taught in the Pivot System (inner and outer embouchure plus mouthcorners) when I played, and I've gotta tell you that for a couple years I was never really sure where I was putting the mouthpiece. It felt so foreign, and I can see why a guy might resist converting from dry to wet.

But about a year after I started down the wet embouchure road, I saw a guy from Wisconsin arrive at NTSU and he twisted so badly that he actually had a fold on his top lip under the rim of the mouthpiece. John Haynie told the young man that there was no future for a guy with chop problems that severe at such a young age (app. 1

and recommended that he abandon his trumpet aspirations.

Well, when I heard about this I suggested to the guy that this was a load of crap and that he go to Philadelphia and study with Doc. He was thrilled at this glimmer of hope after having all his hopes dashed by Haynie, and moved back to Wisconsin and began flying to Philly for lessons every couple months. Last I heard (back in '79 or '80) this guy was on a wet embouchure, had lost the twisting, and was kicking ass in his hometown (I think that was Kenosha). For the life of me I can't remember his name, but a guy named John Ahern was his hometown buddy and can verify this story.

So, Dave, your student needs to get a huge dose of willingness and a couple years of encouragement . . . Doc told me that if a guy was out there with a heavy playing schedule and feeding his family via his playing that he wouldn't recommend switching to a wet embouchure all at once, but it sounds like this student has plenty of time to effect this change without hurting his pocketbook in the meantime.

Oh, and then we're supposed wipe the pore oil from our lips and re-wet them from time to time to prevent over-lubrication, or as Doc would say, to keep our embouchure from being ideal skating facilities. Big difference between an embouchure lubricated with saliva and pore oil . . . between wiping the chops with a handkerchief and drinking water during a gig, my endurance is significantly better than when I forget to do those things.

Enough out of me . . . hope you're having a nice day!

Rich
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Wilktone · Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 9:23 am Post subject:

Thanks for the replies! I will pass these along to my student.

While we're at it, do you have any advice for him on things he can be practicing to help him get used to the switch, other than just lubricating his lips before he plays?

Dave
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PH · Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:47 pm Post subject:

Rich,

Was that Danny Fornero?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:43 pm Post subject:

Pops · Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2002 6:34 pm Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 11:12 ]

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Look out everybody, I'm back!

I'd like to put my two cents in on this wet/dry lip thing.

First off I do agree with Doc that a wet embrouchure is always best. But, and this is a very big BUT, a dry lip does offer much more compession to play the high register.

Think about all the great high note players who play dry: Jon Faddis, Walt Johnson, Bill Chase, Cat Anderson, Al Porcino, and I'll bet you didn't know that Maynard plays with a dry top lip.

Once I was telling Doc how bad I wanted to play tripple C's. He said "If you dry your chops off I know you can play higher than you can now". Well I did try it and I couldn't get a middle C to come out.

My point here is that I do believe that wet is better and helps keep the bad habits away, but you can't knock dry either especially when you see so many great high note players playing dry. But you do have to watch the twisting for placement, that will definitely catch up with you later on.

Chris

walter · Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:51 pm Post subject:

There's no doubt that a dry set-up can be used to develop more tension in the chops, and therefore allow a player to play high . . . thru a lip twist. Rotating the mouthpiece on dry chops can twist the lips and offer more tension & resistance to the air column; ergo setting the stage for someone with good abdominal support to push out high tones.

Look at Louis Armstrong, wiping his chops off with his omnipresent handkerchief. Doc told me that Louis used Witch Hazel on his chops to dry them out even more. I never thought of Armstrong as a high note artist until recently, when someone put his career in historical perspective. Early in Armstrong's career, he was considered to have a great high register. I think that maybe he raised the level of expectations of lots of trumpeters about what a high register was. But today? Armstrong and high register don't match in many players' minds.

I'm not as familiar with jazz/commercial artists as most of you are . . . even though I must have listened to years of Conrad Gozzo tapes in Doc's studio. I can still identify the characteristic overtones of many great jazz/commercial high-tone players, all because of those tapes of Doc.

In the orchestral field, the ability to play high tones and nothing else is a joke. A few decades ago, many orchestral players didn't even have a very strong high concert C [D in Bb terms]. Even back then though, the decent players had a range up to about an F or G above high C. These days, I can't imagine a pro player who doesn't have a fairly decent high range . . . not as strong as a decent jazz/commercial trumpeter; but still respectable. The range and endurance of a typical orchestral trumpeter would easily match what Louis Armstrong did in his high tone days.

Orchestral settings require other embouchure skills that I think would be beyond a dry lip player. One of the most obvious is pianissimo playing. Chop response at very low dynamic levels are simply demanded in everyday orchestral playing. When everyone else is playing at a level of pianissimo, a trumpeter playing an A above the staff [as in Brahms' 1st symphony] at a mezzo-forte can sound just too loud. I've found that large mouthpieces facilitate this type of need. Sure, a large diameter can take a toll on endurance; but orchestral playing requires a different type of endurance than big band playing.

To me, it's like comparing the endurance of a marathon bicyclist [the jazz lead player] to that of a boxer in a heavyweight event [the principal in an orchestra]. Who is the one with the better chops? Well, they're using their skills in different ways. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

Actually, in orchestral playing, I find that the skills required in different pieces of music require me to resurrect different abilities at different times. Very few orchestral trumpeters are really great at all styles. I suspect that this is true in jazz as well.

Back to the original idea of this thread: wet vs. dry. The price of dry lip playing is at least a limitation in the variety of ways that a trumpeter can play. Doc told me that dry lip players become less and less consistent over time. Perhaps this explains some of the stories about Maynard's lack of consistency, if he is indeed a dry lip player. An orchestral player can not afford not to play what is written on the chart . . . and in the way the part says to play any particular passage. No wonder orchestral players are either arrogant or nuts.

walter [the nut]

trumpetfreak8 · New Member Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 3

Hi everyone,

I am the student that Dr Wilken is refering to in ths post. I just wanted to take the time to defend my dry playing style, and explain my idea as to why I feel I get these sores. The reason that I don't feel that dry playing is my problem is that during the summer when I hardly touch my horn ( I know thats bad, but thats a different post) I get these sores more often. I went to my Dr. and asked him what he thought the deal was, he said that they are fever blisters and are caused from the sun and the wind. I work outside in the summer and I deal with these blisters all summer. also the most recent blister I got I believe came from the football game our showband played at. It was about 30 degrees outside and it was a three hour gig in the wind and sun. I feel that after 13 years of playing this way my lips like many other muscles can be conditioned to this style. I also feel that playing wet leads to chapped lips more often than dry. those people that lick there lips often know what I am talking about. I appreciate all the posts on this topic and i am looking forward to what your opinions are on my rebuttal. thanks again

Justin Spradlin

walter · Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:01 pm Post subject:

Hi Justin- Thanks for joining us. The information that you provide in your post is indeed helpful, but I think that it's still not sufficient to solve all of your problems.

_PhilPicc · Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:33 pm Post subject:

Hi Justin, Welcome to TH

As Walter suggested, I think you should definately see a dermatologist if you are not already doing so. They are the skin gurus'.

As far as the chapped lips are concerned. There are a ton of products on the market that both prevent and heal. I am a "ChapStick" junkie, but like I said there are lots of other fine products to choose from.

Best of luck and keep us posted.
Phil
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We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:29 pm Post subject:

_PhilPicc · Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:22 pm Post subject:

Hey Rich,

I don't know what you consider who the average Joe on the street is. I've been using "ChapStick" for over 50 years with no problems. What exactly is in the make-up of "ChapStick" That is so bad?

I also posted that there were a lot of products on the market that were very good. Also he should check with a dermatologist.

Just because Doc did not like a brand of lip balm doesn't mean it needs to be a "Red Flag."

Is all I said was that I am a "CHAPSTICK" Junkie, If you are an expert on lip medications please let me know.

I enjoy your posts I just happen to disagree with this one.

Regards,
Phil

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Philip Satterthwaite

[ This Message was edited by: PhilPicc on 2002-11-14 23:28 ]

DSR · Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:47 am Post subject:

Reinhardt's conclusions were based on science, and logic...not personal opinion or "I feel like this..." Apparently he has some reason why not to use blistex ect... What that reason is I don't know. I trust that this brilliant man knew what he was doing.

Does anyone know why Reinhardt wanted us to use A&D and not the other stuff? My dad has the lip care sheets at home that explain everything, but obviously I don't have access to them at the moment.

-B

_Don Herman · Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:11 am Post subject:

The original Chapstick forumula was banned for Navy fliers (e.g., my uncle) because it reacts with oxygen poorly -- that is, in a manner which tends to eat away at flesh. Source: my dad, Ph.D. microbiology, and Navy manual ca. 60's (I think -- my dad has it).

A number of lip balms include things which will actually dry and/or numb lips to some degree; these tend to be bad for trumpet players (or any musicians who need their lips to play).

I use Neutrogena and ChapStick Lip Moisturizer w/sunscreen (sun's a bit bright at 7500', my home altitude). I prefer the Neutrogena as it has fewer negative side effects. Not saying it's best, just happens to be what I use. I have tried the A&D and think it's superior, but hard to carry in my pocket! Not to mention the time I got a little travel tube 'cuz I thought it would work in my pocket, and then had it all over my jeans... Anyway, A&D does not have the agents in some lip sticks which do the damage.

Cyberjaz carries a "ChopsTic" product which has been highly touted my players with medical backgrounds.

FWIW - Don
(Sorry to be off topic, Rich, but y'all started it!)
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

OzTrumpeteer · Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 7:04 am Post subject:

I hate playing with any product on my lips, but I often use lanolin overnight. I find that it heals cracks well.

Also, I find that the times when my lips get cracked is usually when I haven't been practicing or playing regularly. Does anyone else experience this? I think it might have to do with the way playing makes the blood circulate in your lips. Or because I drink lots of water when I practice. (therefore my body is hydrated. it's not for lip lubrication).

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 7:34 am Post subject:

ChapStick junkie? I think there's something in ChapStick that keeps your lips from healing, personally. This is my opinion, but back in my pre-Reinhardt days I found that once I started using the stuff, my lips sorta became dependent on it. With A&D Ointment, one or two applications, and I'm past the chapped lips. In fact, I can't remember the last time I had chapped lips for more than a day.

Philip, I'm not slamming you. Doc told me there was something in ChapStick that's not a good idea for brass players to put on our lips. As much as we demand from those sensitive tissues, the last thing I want to do is put something on them that a long-time expert in the brass field recommended not using.

This is the Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt forum, after all, and I was merely relaying the information that he had emphatically relayed to me. That's all.

Have a nice day, unless you've made other plans!

Rich
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_PhilPicc · Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:03 pm Post subject:

All right let's just put the "ChapStick" issue to bed. All I said is that I use it. For me I don't know whether it heals or not because I don't get chapped lips or any other sores. Go figure, it must be the orange juice.

As far as "having a nice day unless I've made other plans". I always plan on having a nice day and seeing myself in the mirror the next day with no guilt.

Feeling fine,

Phil

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Philip Satterthwaite

[ This Message was edited by: PhilPicc on 2002-11-15 20:48 ]

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 7:23 pm Post subject: