Comeback Range

[Tim W]

I have comeback to the trumpet after 35 yrs. and I am having range issues. D above is about it on a good day! Super C's never used to be a problem. I have studied what Pop's has to say along with incorporating John Lynch's advice but nothing is happening. My horns leak and blow by in the valve sections and wonder if this is a factor, although my new Schilke and CV1 don't help. Also, my right corner is blowing out when I reach- never had that problem back in the day. Don't know any good teachers in my area, so I just practice and research. Could anyone out there please give up some advice? Thanks!

[stradlover]

Well, welcome back! To help folks give you a little advice, it would probably be helpful if you could share some more information. I am a comeback player as well (if I can still call myself that after a little over a year now), and I found that there are some things that you might share that might be helpful to folks in answering your questions:

1. How old are you now?
2. Are you talking about the D over high C (above staff) I assume?
3. How long has your comeback been going on?

You might do a search on comeback players and range, and you will probably find this is one of the most posted topics as so many of us seem to be so concerned about range in our comebacks...me included.

Anyway, answer those couple questions and some folks might have some ideas of what to expect, and potential ways to progress....and trust me, there are a LOT! It's a lot of work to sift through those ideas, and pick ONE strategy that seems most appropriate for you (preferably at the advice of a GOOD instructor), and then systematically approach it that ONE way. Wild goose chases are exhausting and frustrating to comeback players.

Welcome back, good luck, and God bless...
Kelly
_________________
'78 Bb Bach Strad 180-37
Getzen Genesis Rick Braun Signature Model
Schilke B6
4-Valve Getzen Eterna Flugel
Yamaha 6810S Piccolo Trumpet
Yamaha 2330 Cornet
Stomvi Titan Eb Soprano Cornet
Pocket Trumpet for the car

[gregc]

I'm thinking it's just a matter of practice & time before the chops rebuild to where they once were. Some things, you just can't rush. Practice, and plenty of rest in between.
Maybe... what the hell do i know?
_________________
_________
gregc

[DaveH]

I regret to hear that there are no good teachers available, because learning and developing, or re-developing skills via the Internet will be a pretty big limitation, IMO. Here are some questions:

How wide was your range in the days when "super Cs" were not a problem? What are your range expectations today? How much do you practice on a consistent basis? What do you practice? What sort of mouthpiece are you using? The same as in the past? (No, I absolutely do NOT advocate some kind of shallow cup, tight backbore set-up). How would you describe the embouchure technique you are using; i.e. open, closed? How is your tone quality?

I do not think your horns are the issue at all.

I'm not at all sure if this issue can be solved on the Internet. You can read lots of discussion and ideas; ultimately, I tend to think that trumpet playing is an applied skill; there must be "hands-on," personal, face to face contact and experience. That is why I think a decent teacher is needed to work on it with you - as well as the other things you mention.

IMHO, range is perhaps the most difficult and time consuming thing to achieve on the trumpet, along with good tone. Redeveloping the range you once had should not, IMHO, be much of a problem. It wasn't for me, although I did have some help with somewhat of an embouchure adjustment and I now play a 3C rather than a 1 1/4C. Significantly extending that range is another matter entirely. For most players, it takes years of dedicated work, practice, and good technique. And, not everyone develops an equivalent, reliable range. If all that were not the case, it wouldn't be such a big topic and sought after thing by so many players. Also, be wary of people who tell you they play such and such a range. Maybe, but more than likely no. IMHO, the range can be defined as the notes that can be played any time, anywhere, on demand, on any mouthpiece, and with excellent tone and control. Now, does that change anything?

[Fleebat]

Tim,

Maybe hearing about my experience will help some.

I was a full-ride, scholarship tpt perf. major when I left school & switched to guitar. Sophomore year, 1975. Sold my horns to buy an archtop guitar. Ten years later I cobbled together enough chops to snag a gig with a touring artist who had chart singles at the time. About 75-80% guitar on that gig, and I struggled most of the time to make the horn parts. Gig ended, laid it down again, with only the occasional spurt of tpt-focused energy that allowed the occasional big-band gig.

In 1999 the opportunity to do some European touring came up, but I had to put together enough on the horn to make the gig. Had to go out and buy a trumpet, actually. I applied basically the same embouchure & approach that I'd always used. It was tough, but I was pretty much ready when we left the States about 5 weeks later (this was R&B stuff that only required about a D, and only a few of those in the whole show. A good D was about all that I ever had before. I mostly played the jazz book or 3rd in big bands).

I started REALLY getting into my horn after that. But I decided that I didn't want to be as good as I was in college or whatever. I wanted to be much better. Chucked the old embouchure, read a lot, corresponded a lot with good players, started slowly and experimented. Checked out players I admired who didn't seem to be working so hard but were playing their butts off. My thought was that, now in my late 40s (I'll turn 50 this year), I simply cannot FORCE sound out of the horn, and don't want to even if I could. Want to play for the rest of my life. So, I had to find an easier way to play.

What has worked for me (the magical words... for me... not claiming that this is how everyone would succeed) is the attitude that, outdise of fairly firm corners and remembering to think pucker instead of stretch, if I'm "doing" something with my lips or face or tongue or whatever, I'm making it too hard. And whereas I used to have all kinds of twists and tricks and setup ticks to remember, now I put the horn to my lips and blow. I try to use a steady, focused airstream. The tone is generated with very little effort, and I'm never panting after a long line due to air control issues. Most would call what I use today an open-type embouchure. Even when I'm tired, I can play a nice A below double C if you really need one. My flexibility is exponentially better than in years past. Endurance is far better. Tone is exactly what I want it to be, big, broad, and consistent throughout my usable range. I'm giggable. I feel comfortable booking demo or indie record sessions again. My conclusions are forming:

1. Most of us make WAY to much physical work out of trumpet playing.
2. If you're not doing anything stupid, like throwing counterproductive "do-this, then do that, then hold this that way, then put your *fill in the blank* like that" twists and tricks in the mix, you as a comeback player can absolutely attain a semi-pro level in terms of tone, attack, phrasing and range in just a few months. A dedicated lead player will have somewhat higher physical demands at the chops end. Also, this is assuming that you had your phrasing, tone CONCEPT and articulation reasonably together years ago. This also assumes that you're putting a couple hours a day into it, minimum.
3. I am not one who thinks a teacher is a must, unless you're wanting to be a symphony pro or something, and you're probably starting back a little late for that. I taught guitar very successfully for about 15 years, and remain convinced that a dedicated student who works hard to keep the next level in mind and keeps his eyes peeled for material that challenges can be his own "good" teacher. In short, if you use your brain, you can go a long, LONG way without a teacher. Don't get me wrong; a good teacher can help a lot. But those who tout a certain pedagogue (or "method") tend to believe that their "Trumpet Guru" somehow found/knows the "secret" passage to good playing and that if you don't do those particular exercises from that particular teacher in that particular order and precisely folow the particular things the Guru espouses, you will not succeed. I don't buy it.
4. Play songs. Play lines. Know chord/scale theory backwards and forward, so when you find a phrase you like you can work it up in every key, know why it sounds like it does to you, and make it a part of your subconscious vocabulary.
5. LET your range grow, rather than trying to force it to expand. I have discovered that 99% of my old embouchure woes were rooted in dumb "work-arounds" I had to do with my chops in order to make higher notes than I was really capable of. Each new embouchure quirk then becomes a part of your overall embouchure. Eventually, you will look like someone doing a bad Gabby Hayes imitation.

So, that's some serious ramblin', but it's worked for me.

Rusty Russell

[Tim W]

Thanks for all your replys!- Every little bit helps. To DaveH: I practice 3-4 hrs. a day with one day a week off. From low F# to high C, we had a nice full, open centered sound. When I was young and at my best, everyone complemented my sound and tone. Now, it is still there. Practice is from Arban's as follows: warm-up, slurs, scales, intervals, 16ths for an hour in the am; ornamentation, arppegios, char. studies in the afternoon for an hour; pm songs, etudes, adlib session- kinda of a fussion jam in my head combining the various techniques and key changes- freestyle. When I started the comeback 5 mos ago, I bought two new mouthpieces- Giardinelli 7C and 6M. Now, I'm playing Giardinelli 3C and like it! I've been following Pop's suggestions, but am more inclined to follow John Lynch's advice. I kept very good notes when I studied under Dr. Harry Wallenstein back in the 60's, and can't seem to find anyone in my area in Michigan to work with- I've talked to a few guys, but after discussing issues with them have concluded that where I'm at and where they're at is quite different. They are more of the beginner- intermediate types. Now, please understand Dave, when we first initiated this comeback it was'nt a grab and blow deal. We went back to the Rubank Methods, which Mr. Earl Garrett started me on at the age of 8, and virtually replicated eveything from day one. It was Dr. Wallenstein who taught minimum pressure and typically correct aperature control. Speaking of embouchure, we've studied Farkas and have his book- The Art of Brass Playing. What works best for me at this juncture is the method employed by John Lynch. See "asymmetrical-mouthpiece.com". High range- the corners are blowing out! Too much compression, lack of corner development? Im aware of muscle memory and maybe I am expecting to much to soon. Anyway, there are good days and bad days, and I certainly appreciate all of the time and opinions you guys submit- Please keep up the good work!

[chopissimo]

[_PhilPicc]

Hi Tim and welcome to TH.

You don't mention where in Michigan you reside. If we knew maybe one of us could come up with a teacher for you.

As has been mentioned rest is essential in rebuilding an embouchure. Playing while tired is a sure way to break down all the good work that preceded.

Best of luck,
Phil
_________________
Philip Satterthwaite

We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
- Sir Thomas Beecham to a musician during a rehearsal

[stradlover]

Again, welcome back. There's nothing quite like the feeling of playing agin, is there!?

Well, not to beat on a subject, but I can tell you that just about everyone on this site who is a comeback player suffered from wanting too much range too quickly. I did exactly the same....and continue to do so. However, another word of caution from one who made the mistake:

Be careful about pushing your range too hard too soon. What I did during the first part of my comeback, was to develop my range a little fasther than I really should have. Then, when I noticed it had come back to where it had pretty quickly, I started pushing the limits really fast (within a couple weeks to months). The end result, was that I got hung up along the way with a few nasty habits that I didn't used to have, and now I am trying to undo those. Primarily it included mashing the mouthpiece into my face to whail out a big fat E or so at the end of a chart. I even started seeing greater success once I started using the Balanced Embouchure approach, and my range went up to a useable G relatively quickly. So, I tried to use that all the time, and tried to push the range even faster.....end result was my chops lost a lot of flexibility, and I got hung up on the G over high C for a long time. Finally realized what I'd done with the excessive pressure, which was really limiting my endurance and holding my range still. Now, with alternating 10 minutes on the horn with 5 minutes or so off the horn, my endurance is increasing at an unbelievable rate...as well as my range (approaching tripple C) due to my return to proper playing habits.

A lot of us have done exactly what you are probably getting ready to do... push too much too fast. And you will likely think the same thing we did... "No, I'm different....I was a really good player a few years back. It will come back faster for me than that." Well, for many of us it did...but many of us developed some really bad habits because of that. I simply advise the excellent type of practice cited in this post, at a rate that allows the chops to recover just like in weight lifting. Pushing beyond that too fast (which is REALLY HARD NOT TO DO!!!!!) can cause some real setbacks in the long run.

Welcome back, and keep on playing!
Kelly
_________________
'78 Bb Bach Strad 180-37
Getzen Genesis Rick Braun Signature Model
Schilke B6
4-Valve Getzen Eterna Flugel
Yamaha 6810S Piccolo Trumpet
Yamaha 2330 Cornet
Stomvi Titan Eb Soprano Cornet
Pocket Trumpet for the car

[trumpetmom]

Howdy all,

Well, it's been 'bout, hmmm, lessee.....ummm....4 weeks? or so since I got my Wild Thing horn. Prior to that, I was as comeback as one could imagine!

During the past two weeks, I've discovered (eureka!) that the *less* I *worry* about playing the better I sound! I just play, practice, have fun with the kids, etc. Back when I was playing in school, I was lucky to hit G above the staff....2.5 weeks ago I squeaked out a C above that, and now more and more I'm able to play longer and hit stronger notes like that. Not every time, mind you...but more and more! It's very encouraging and fun....not to mention a great way to relax from website building or mattress shopping or printing out the day's extra enrichment work for the kids or.....

-- Barb
http://www.drumlinemadness.com

[Tim W]

Thanks for the replies! Francois, back in the day, I somehow had the mpc shift towards the left of center. Anyway, since this is a comeback attempt, I am concious of trying to keep everything centered on the horizontal plane- and 1/3-2/3 on the vertical plane, Yes, I have had that annoying little fly-wing buzz appear, but usually after a day of rest!
Philip in Clarkston- know where you are at- used to trade with Louise at the the bike shop there on Main. I'm in Bay City taking care of my elderly mom, although have retired to Florida 5 yrs. ago. Keep in touch, y'all! Every little bit helps!

[Trumpeter58]

Hi Tim.

First of all I want to echo the congrats for coming back to the trumpet after 35 years. I came back after something over 20 years of not playing at all, and longer than that away from any organized instrumental involvement to speak of.

Where the chops and range are concerned, I had pretty much the same questions as you, and addressed them to an associate professor of music/trumpet instructor at our local university. In a nutshell he told me that though practice, practice, practice the end result should be close to what it was way back when I was 40+ years younger, but that the adaptation might involve different use of some of the same muscles that dominated back then, and using other muscles that I may not have used back then. Like yourself, I practice 3-4 hours per day, usually broken into two sessions, one in the a.m. and the other p.m. I had sort of hit a wall at high D, with occasionally being able to squeak out a high E, so I found some time with the same prof. to discuss possible remedies to higher range and better endurance. He looked at my mouthpieces, my "main" Olds 7C, a Blessing 7C, and a Blessing 10 1/2C and had me play each. Then he said my tone is good, but not well centered, which probably meant that I was subconsciously straining to maintain proper pitch. He had me try a Bach 7E, which resulted in "splattering" a lot of articulation. Then he asked me if I would consider switching mouthpieces, to a Monette STC1-B4S, which even though it does not directly compare to the Olds and Blessing 7C cups, he described as a "slam dunk" middle of the road choice that he thought would work well for me. I began using a Monette B4S yesterday, about which I had some reservations that were mainly related to cost ($215). But believe it or not, it only took me about five minutes to "find myself" in that mpc, and I see no reason to go back. I'm not promoting Monette mouthpieces. I can just tell you that after a 1-hour rhearsal yesterday with a college concert band and two p.m. practice sessions instead of one, I find the Monette B4S to be very comfortable thoughout the range. High C now comes easy, and once I'm completely warmed up I can reach high G without squeaking it. If you're interested you can go to the Monette website (www.monette.net) and read about each of the mouthpieces they offer.
Best of luck to you.
_________________
"Blowing" my retirement away.
"All that we know is infinitely less than that which we have yet to learn."

Blessing ML-1S
Olds Special NA 100ZU
Holton Collegiate cornet (circa 1953)
Olds NF13MRT Flugel
Monette STC1-B4S

[ballsrburning]

[shastastan]

Like others, I couldn't play high at all in high school--maybe a top space G. Now I can make it to D but the better note quality is at C. I've been playing 13 months. However, I think that way too much emphasis is place on high range. Sure it's important, but it's even more important to play with good tone quality and count right when playing with a group.

Be very careful about developing "bad habits". I can tell you they are very hard to break. I was just told that I was not holding my horn correctly and it's now hard to do it right. Somethings just happen with no thought at all. I have great fun with the playalong cds but now play too loud because I would just turn up the volume rather than play softer. Now, in a couple of groups, I have been told to play softer. I'm having a little trouble doing it because my hearing has adjusted to the louder sound and the louder playing just happens on autopilot. If you're playing music that doesn't require anything above C1, why worry about it?

Stan