Kalijah, Syntax, and Mohan, et. al

[AverageJoe]

I don't know about all of you, but I've had more than enough of the air speed, air pressure, tongue level debate. It is entirely predictable -- Every time they get locked into a stalemate, realizing that one side will never convince the other. They agree to disagree and move on, but without fail, one of them will forget that the last stalemate ever happened, start the whole thing over again, and they will go another 12 rounds.

I vote that they have a debate at ITG this year -- either that or a steel cage match! Whatever happens, I just hope that there is a way that we never have to see another bazillion-page thread of debate on this topic. Enough already!

<rant over>

Paul Poovey
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..."

[Bill Scott]

I just hope that they show up at the ITG conference and do an 'in person' presentation of their viewpoints. We can vote on it then and there. Of course, I'm betting Kalijah won't show up, heck he wouldn't even put up sound clips!
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There are two sides to a Trumpeter's personality: There is the one that lives only to lay waste to the woodwinds and strings, leaving them lying blue and lifeless along the swath of destruction that is a trumpeter's fury. Then there's the Dark Side"

[trumpetmike]

Who cares?

If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't.

Why can't anyone understand that one method is not the only way to achieve something?

Those threads are almost amusing sometimes - the passion with which people fight for their viewpoint. If they were that passionate about everything in life, they could make a real difference to the world.

[maccluer]

I didn't know that it had to be one or the other. Can you explain the disagreement? I didn't think that those three concepts were mutually exclusive.
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www.joshuamaccluer.com

[AverageJoe]

[maccluer]

I see what you're saying. My own opinion is that tongue level helps control airspeed. So I suppose that is the grand unifying theory of trumpet playing.

Thanks for your kind words about the site. Glad you enjoyed it.

Josh
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www.joshuamaccluer.com

[Mikeytrpt]

Kalijah, Syntax, and Mohan


Sounds like a law firm.................

[marathoner]

If you or any of your loved ones have suffered an on the job injury or been injured in an automobile accident, you can rely on the firm of Kalijah, Syntax, and Mohan to do what is right and get you proper compensation !!!!!!!! This has been a public service announcement ....

[kalijah]

First of all, John made the same erroneous claims and argued them with learned individuals long before I joined the forum.

The vast majority of players, even those with advanced education or experience, have practically no real knowlege of the science involved. Whether it be air-flow science or accoustics.

Yet they will attempt to "explain" their methods and back them up, with science that is totaly inaccurate.

Most of these "scientific" explainations are extremely popular among players and teachers. Thus they have propogated to the degree that they exist in the minds of players today.

There are a host of pedagogical methods that are harmful to player development and efficiency. Mainly because of their completely incorrect scientific "support".

And, some do learn to play well in spite of the mis-information that exists.

BUT, There is no penalty to correct knowlege.

It may even be an asset.

As for sound clips, I don't think I remember anyone requesting one, Bill.

As for the ITG they have an excellent journal columnist that is a physicist who has shown that the embouchure determines pitch and the oral cavity size does not. And he has also shown that the embouchure, and how it behaves, determines the sound "color".

His writings and findings, for the most part, have been completely ignored on TH.

Changes to the jaw, mouth and tounge, do influence the embouchure indirectly. And it has nothing to do with air speed.

[mafields627]

[JakeUND]

I just like it how people think that THEIR way of trumpet playing is THE correct way of playing. Does it never come into their mind that there is more than one way to play the trumpet? Everyone has different facial structure so one way of playing can't work for everyone, unless someone plans on building a civilization of clones. I do have to admit the clones of Starwars are pretty cool looking...
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Lawler C7R
Leblanc T357
Monette B4S/B4L S1

[chopissimo]

There is an easy way to suss the players with a "good" playing technique from players with a "not so good" one.

Just watch them play: those who seem like they are in great pain while playing (and this seems to be the majority) fall in the "not so good" category. That leaves a few "good" ones! Check the pics of some TH members

Playing trumpet (or violin, or piano, or any other instrument) should be a pleasure, not a torture or a constant fight.

If it does not come easy, you are doing something wrong, and perhaps should try another instrument!
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Fran�ois
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'48 Conn 22B New York Symphony
'68 Conn Director (still going strong!)

Playing "bop" is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing.
-- Duke Ellington

[308WIN]

Chopp,
It sounds like you need to watch more players then. There are a LOT of fantastic players who look "less than comfy" when playing. To judge whether one's technique is sound or not by how they look is ridiculous.


Rich
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كافر

9/11/01 Never forget those who died. Never forget those who killed them.

[John Mohan]

I always felt it best to judge the player by how he sounds as opposed to how he looks. Fortunately for me, all my employers over the years apparently took the same approach.

Cheers,

John

[Bill Scott]

[healey.cj]

The reason why this dispute keeps occuring is lack of resolution. And the lack of resolution is due to the fact that they are BOTH RIGHT!
The Science that Kalijh etc is providing is correct, but is incomplete IMO... I'm not a scientist or engineer, but most of these arch debates have focused on the raising of the tongue. If that was ALL that happend then there would be no argument - Kalijh would be right. However the tip of the tongue DOES interact with the airstream close enough to the aperture to cause an increase in velocity. The acutal arching motion only reduces the air stream so that it is sufficently small enough for the tongue tip to create an increase in speed rather than the air simply moving around it. I'm fairly certain that the tongue tip creates a 'valve' of sorts with the back of the teeth, creating a pressure and hence an increase in velocity as the high pressure system moves towards the lower pressure system of the trumpet. And once inital flow has been created, the air will continue to follow it unless it has been closed off.
The arching works to counteract overblowing and the tip is near enough to the aperture for it to create a change in velocity.

However, this is what i THINK. I do not know this for sure. But then, Eienstein didn't know for sure if Special relativity was even remotley correct. (which it is accepted it is - time dilation and mass dilation as eienstein thought of them are not correct though)... and i'm not comparing myself to Eienstein, he was just the first person who came to mind. Again, i await the opinion of more qualified/educated individuals but i think what i am saying is atleast plausible. If not please explain why. i don't care if i'm wrong i just need to know why.

Chris

[LeeC]

The simple answer to the "controversy" is that presuurized air has an effect on the embouchure not air speed.

Fill a compressor to it's maximum limit. That amount is usually around 120 PSI. Now attach a compressor hose to the tank and measure the pressure at the far end.

What is it? Answer: The same as it is at the tank. 120 PSI. The air may be travelling more quickly through the hose because of the thiness of the tube but the pressure remains close to constant.

This is analogous to the mouth cavity of a brass player because his body is largely a closed system like the compressor. The air right behind his embouchure is the exact same pressure as found deep in his lungs.

Now if the musician was a flute player or a whistler the raised tongue level can have an impact. But a flautist ot whistler does not maintain a closed system like the brass player does. The flute embouchure is open around a quarter of an inch hole (roughly) and the whistler about the same.

It is this similarity of raised tongue for whistling that makes brass players erroneously believe a raised tongue will influence pitch.

If indeed a trumpet player raises his tongue and believes this is helping him ascend in pitch he is mistaken. The more likely "cause & effect" priinciple is that he slightly closed his teeth and blew a little harder. This manipulated the embouchure to allow the production of a higher note.

Oftentimes the jaw movement upwards and tongue movement upwards happen at the same time. But to relate tongue arch to a higher pitch? Impossible. Is like thinking that simply by hitting your turn signal the car will automatically turn left or right.

I have sustained extremely high notes on the trumpet many many times. Sometimes in excess of triple C while done on three radically different embouchures. In all three cases the notes could be held with the lowest possible tongue level without any effect on pitch.

[John Mohan]

[Robert Rowe]

This is the age of grossness and stupidity. -- Bill Watrous



~~ Namaste ....
Yogi Robt
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I miss Genghis Khan ....

[Skip]

Great doctoral thesis topic. Any takers?