Pedal Embrochure Question

[MF Fan]

I'm into year 3 of a recreational "come back" to trumpet after a 20 year lay-off. I've implemented a slight change in my embrochure lately, but I'm not sure if it's a breakthrough, or a breakdown(?!).

When I picked the horn back up I was determined to "do it right" by working my way into a "correct" embrochure set-up that I could build on long-term, and would eliminate the "smile" embrochure that mysteriously appeared when I picked the horn back up. Based on everything I was reading, I started out by playing with the lower lip noticeably tucked-in, 60% top lip, 40% bottom. I had mixed results for about a year. Fast-forward, last year I got into Clyde Hunt's "Sail The 7 C's" which include pedal tones, and focuses on playing with one embrochure across your entire range, similar to Claude's approach. The pedals lead me to let my lower lip out a bit, almost to the point where it felt I wasn't rolling it in at all. As I retained this setting ascending, I realized an immediate fattening of my tone, and ease of upper register I hadn't experienced to date. After experimenting with this for a while, and replicating the set-up while buzzing, I noticed that the lower lip is still over the bottom teeth, but just barely. You may not even notice a difference vs. it's position at rest. Still plenty of red showing. In my original playing days I had worked with Gordon's SA quite a bit, and I started thinking maybe this is related to what his approach was designed to develop(?). I'll go into a bit more detail to see if it makes sense to anyone that may be interested in commenting:

What I noticed is that I'm creating a "platform" for the bottom lip by rolling just enough lower lip in, so that the "ridge", or dividing point between the soft inner lip and firmer outer lip is sitting right on top of my lower teeth. It's almost like structurally this ridge has some strength (I know it's not a muscle), and allows me to create a lot more compression. I think the vibrating point is working on the fringe of the softer inner tissue, which gives the fatter, rich tone. When I roll the lip in further, past this ridge, I feels like I can't create the same amount of compression, and my sound thins out, relatively speaking. Compression is created by pushing the jaw forward into the mouthpiece. The primary sensation as I ascend above the staff is my lower lip pushing harder in the mouthpiece(lip going forward, not horn coming back). The bottom lip never "disappears," which is the way some describe it when they're in their upper register. Maybe it's because I have a "fleshy" lower lip, as compared to others with thinner lips. Also, pushing the jaw forward, so that my top and bottom teeth are aligned really opens up my sound with this set-up, which made me think I was onto something. My teeth are in alignment by the time I get to middle C. With this setting I can do 2-3 octave glisses and/or chromatics from the pedal range up to high d's and e's without resetting.

I know it's impossible to "diagnosis" a set-up having never seen or heard the player, but based on this description, does this sound familiar to anyone? Is this a typical by product of pedals, or have I gone down a path leading to no where?

[John Mohan]

Sounds like you're getting the correct feel, but impossible to say for sure without seeing you.

Stay away from concentrating so much on the lips and embouchure and think about what makes them vibrate and work: air power and control of that air power. That's the key.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

[EBjazz]

<When I picked the horn back up I was determined to "do it right" by working my way into a "correct" embrochure set-up that I could build on long-term, and would eliminate the "smile" embrochure that mysteriously appeared when I picked the horn back up.>

Claude never spoke of the "smile" embochure at my lessons, as this would have nothing to do with me. Not many people use the smile embochure and I doubt you do. The smile can not mysteriously appear as you say. It really needs to be developed. You are probably confusing smiling with the drawing back of the corners. Smiling is only bad when it strecthes the aperture flat. Drawing the corners back(and often up or down) is fine. Smiling and strecthing is a whole other thing.

<Based on everything I was reading, I started out by playing with the lower lip noticeably tucked-in, 60% top lip, 40% bottom. I had mixed results for about a year. Fast-forward, last year I got into Clyde Hunt's "Sail The 7 C's" which include pedal tones, and focuses on playing with one embrochure across your entire range, similar to Claude's approach. The pedals lead me to let my lower lip out a bit, almost to the point where it felt I wasn't rolling it in at all. As I retained this setting ascending, I realized an immediate fattening of my tone, and ease of upper register I hadn't experienced to date. After experimenting with this for a while, and replicating the set-up while buzzing, I noticed that the lower lip is still over the bottom teeth, but just barely.>

Whoa!! Dude! My head is gonna explode! I'm sorry, but you are way over analyzing here.
Many comeback players do this. You shouldn't be experimenting. I do the experimenting. I play trumpet all day long. Your experiments will yield no results, only frustration.

<You may not even notice a difference vs. it's position at rest. Still plenty of red showing. In my original playing days I had worked with Gordon's SA quite a bit, and I started thinking maybe this is related to what his approach was designed to develop(?). I'll go into a bit more detail to see if it makes sense to anyone that may be interested in commenting: >

Claude never had anything in mind. His approach was holistic in nature. I studied with Claude for six years. He never told me anything about anything. I quite frankly can't tell you what Claude Gordon taught. I didn't tape any lessons and didn't take any notes. It wouldn't matter anyhow. I don't think he ever spoke. I sure played a lot at my lessons. And I played well. Claude never played and I never asked him to.
My fondest memories are leaving my lesson with the feeling that I could rule the musical world. That I was somebody special. Claude Gordon's approach was spritual.
I am a messenger of sorts. I still feel those same feelings. And I deliver them to those who are ready to accept them. Claude didn't teach me music or even how to play the trumpet. Claude believed in me as a human being. We rarely talked about music. I'm not a person that lives in the past. Claude liked to fly his plane, that's what got him off! One day he made it nonstop from LA to San Mateo and when I came in he was bustin! None of his other students cared less. He was so exicted to tell me.


Eb
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Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
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[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

Sorry I strayed a bit from original topic up above. But while doing an Internet search on Louis Maggio (which resulted in a wonderful telephone conversation with Carlton MacBeth last night), one of the search "hits" led me to "Pops"'s trumpet webpage.

And on it, he says that the "Maggio" embouchure is one he would only advise players to use if they can't use any other. And this is PURE HOGWASH!!!!!! The whole idea of Maggio was/is to get away from the over-analysis of embouchures and concentrate one's efforts on what makes an embouchure work (Air Power and control of Air Speed via the arching tongue). Maggio's basic description of a correct embouchure is 2/3 upper lip, 1/3 lower lip and don't smile or stretch the lips when playing. That's about it. And that describes the embouchure of just about every successful professional player that's ever lived.

But "Pops" wouldn't recommend this except as a last resort. I'm sure glad I didn't come across him when I was a young struggling player.

Okay, I'm getting off the soapbox now...

John Mohan

[Matt Graves]

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[capriman]

Hi MF,
If you keep your head up your lower jaw will move back into place,your throat will open up and the vibration of you lips will startle you.
Also,tonguing exercises,especially single tongue exercises will help to maintain your pucker or smooch.


[ This Message was edited by: capriman on 2002-12-22 14:37 ]