She Played A High C On Her Fourth Day As A Trumpet Player

[John Mohan]

I'm pleased to announce that my wife Anne just nailed a good strong High C during her fourth practice session as a new, budding trumpet player!

She's doing Lesson 3 from Claude Gordon's "Physical Approach To Elementary Brass Playing For Trumpet" (Lesson 3 is only written to a middle G). After she practiced the lesson, I took her up to some higher notes (explaining how to correctly find and play them). When she was aiming for a G on top the staff, she overshot it and hit a Bb. I said to her, "Wow, that was almost a High C."

A few minutes later, I hear a big, strong High C coming from the other room (and there's only the two of us in the house, except for the dog and cat)!

Lucky girl... she gets to start off her career(?) as a trumpet player learning right from the start how to correctly practice and develop.

Her equipment:

Trumpet: Gold-Plated Selmer Claude Gordon Model

Mouthpiece: Standard Bach 3C

Well that's all for now.

Don't worry, if she starts getting too good, I'll have her switch mouthpieces or something.

Or maybe turn her on to SuperChops (sorry, just kidding, but I couldn't resist)...


Sincerely,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[histrumpet]

Thats remarkable. This is more proof that the system you are teaching is a numbers game. Some have it and some don't, those who don't are doomed to mediocrity. I wouldn't recommend Super Chops, why would anyone want to realize their full potential by having a useable range that surpasses F above high C when they could be on your level?

[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2002-10-17 18:18 ]

[John Mohan]

Dear histrumpet,

Your original text contained a response to my SuperChops joke. You stated a question, something to the effect that why should I want to use SuperChops when it would give her a good F above High C, something pros need (implying she wouldn't get this with the Claude Gordon material - something that couldn't be further from the truth).

I went back on-line about an hour after leaving my original post, intending to edit my SuperChops joke out of the text. I decided it would probably offend the SC people so I was going to get rid of it for that reason - but you had already responded to it with your own little dig. So, in respect to you and not wanting to make your comment look wierd, I left my SC joke in the text, and replied to your reply. But now, I see that you have removed your come-back line to my joke making my reply to your reply look a bit out-of-place! How confusing!

To make matters worse, I can't understand what you are trying to say in your new, edited version.

What "proof" are you talking about? Are you saying the fact that my wife is doing so good using the Clarke/Maggio/Gordon approach I'm teaching her with is "proof" that others won't do so good? If so, how goofy that is!

By the way, if you consider this "proof", here's some more for you: My most recent new student is a young man named Moritz (last name withheld for privacy). He's 9 years old. Started him in Claude Gordon's "Physical Approach to Elementary Practice for Trumpet" three weeks ago. He's already got a nice range to middle C (probably higher, but I'm not going to push him to find out), but more importantly, he's got a good clean solid tone, and can do flexibilities (slurs) between low C and middle G and between middle G and middle C. How many beginners have you seen that can slur from lower notes up to higher notes of the same fingering? Does this "prove" to you that other CG beginning students won't be able to do this or progress as fast and reliably?

One of the most annoying things you and your SC colleagues write are these implications that the Maggio/Clarke/Gordon material is "a numbers game"! Writing that "some have it and some don't, those who don't are doomed to mediocrity" is unfortunately SO misleading and false. I know. I was one of those who "didn't have it". So was just about every Claude Gordon student when they first went to Claude. And I don't know a single one that didn't "get it" as a result of their studies. The fact is, there are a few who studied with Claude for a while and then gave up and moved on to other "methods" before they developed. This is not a fault of Claude's teaching, this is impatience on the part of the player, always looking for that "quick fix" that doesn't really exist in any system of practice.

I see the same thing happening even now. There are people I helped, giving sound advice and creating good practice routines for. They fall into two groups: Group one (including Jake Painter from this forum) practice what I give them - they stick with it and develop. Jake's got a Double C now and a good strong G above High C. And the tonguing, sound and technique required of a pro to match the range. Others get my help, then a few months later I see them making inquiries about other "systems" or ideas and writing about new mouthpieces they're using. Clearly, these people didn't have the patience to stick with what they should have stuck with. I see that recently, a person I gave help to about 6 months ago, after jumping off the bandwagon and spending the past few months trying other things and ideas, just recently wrote words to the effect of, "now I'm starting to think that maybe Gordon knew what he was talking about after all." Of course he did!

So to wrap up, I'll state here and now that at the age of 41, and after playing professionally for more than 20 years in countries on two different continents, I have never met a single person who studied with Claude Gordon for at least 4 or 5 years that didn't develop into a fine player with a good strong F above High C. And most (yes, MOST) have a Double C. More importantly, they can play the trumpet with a professional level of tone and musicianship.

So stop trying to use the "numbers game" jab - it makes you look foolish to those who know better.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

P.S. I think "my level" is a bit above just being able to play a F above High C. It's about a lot more than just range. But if that's all that matters to you, I hit my first Eb above Double C on my 18th Birthday back in 1979 (ten months after my first lesson with Claude Gordon).


[ This Message was edited by: John Mohan on 2002-10-18 03:30 ]

[ This Message was edited by: John Mohan on 2002-10-18 03:34 ]

Just wanted everyone to know that my two above edits were to fix grammatical errors and typos - no contect or content changes. That's all,

JM

[ This Message was edited by: John Mohan on 2002-10-18 05:26 ]


ARRGGHHHHH!!!!! I meant to write, "context", not "contect".

JM

[ This Message was edited by: John Mohan on 2002-10-18 05:27 ]

[PC]

John,

Back to the original topic (I'm afraid I cannot (yet! No quick fixes with me, sorry!) compete with your post-dubba C range): I also have a wife who at her second attempt at getting to grips with that annoying piece of plumber tubing which usually is banned from the living room, hit a high Bb. Contrary to you, though, I had the quick reflex to snatch back my axe before the whole neighbourhood became witness to my humiliation in the high range!

I actually steered her attempt by using the Pat Harbison method related in a thread around here. The same method was also successful with my 5-year old, but he is already doomed to start the violin, so I'm less at risk from him. No luck yet with my 1 year-old!

The equipment was my Mirafone rotary Bb (well to be honest, my wife ended up in the pedal range later, but she was also watching TV at the same time so the concentration factor was low).

So long,
Pierre.

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2002-10-18 06:17 ]

[trumpetgeek234]

Oh man, I can't understand it!
I too hit my first high C pretty soon after I started and after a year of playing or so I was able to hit the Eb above high C, but now 7 years later I am still only playing up to high C maybe high D. I just don't understand why improvement didn't go on and doesn't go on even though I am working really hard on my air support and so on.
Can anyone tell me? Of course I know that noone is able to tell me exactly over the internet, but do you have an idea? I don't think it can just be the air!
I have been told patience will give you a result, but obviously 7 years of patience isn't enough and I am slowly running out of patience!!!
PB

PS: I can squeeze out a g above high C but I don't consider that in my range, because those high notes just don't have sound and I can't even play them loud (louder than mp)

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetgeek234 on 2002-10-18 06:41 ]

[jakepainter]

I live with a guy who is a very fine pianist. He has never had a trumpet lesson in his life but he can easily nail a high C every time he picks up my horn.

I keep telling him to do some practise. lucky for me he's too busy tinkling the ivories

jake

[trickg]

John,

I think that the "F above high C" comment was made in reference to the comment I made about the day that you called me here in DC and picked off an F like it was nothing. I guess they misunderstood my statement and thought that the F was all the higher you could play. As if! The way you did it indicated to me that you had usable range far beyond that.

I'm not trying to stir the pot up here, but didn't you say something to the effect when we were speaking to me over the phone that your embouchure could possibly be labeled a Superchops embouchure, even though you didn't use that method to achieve it? I would doubt that Harry James or Maynard ever called their chops set ups Superchops, yet Harry James, according to Jerry Callet is pretty much the patron saint of the Superchops embouchure. (Please correct me if I'm in error on this statement.)

Back to the subject at hand, I think that it's fantastic that your wife is succeeding and is learing things sans the bad habits that many beginners aquire. I'm still struggling to break many of the bad habits that I have had for nearly 20 years. This is a pretty loose comparison, but one of my Taekwondo instructors stresses that bad habits, if not addressed early on in the beginning belt levels, can slow down and even halt progress toward the more advanced stages. That's why as a 32 year old white belt, I'm taking everything slowly to develop the proper technique and control so that in a few years time, I might actually have some real ability with it.

Tell your wife congratulations on her new beginnings and adventures in the wonderful, wide world of playing the trumpet.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[histrumpet]

Still sounds like a numbers game. Shes a trumpet player after 4 days and you are still trying after 14 years of lessons with Claude Gordon. Were you not practicing efficiently when you were his student? Rant on dude, you are sure to contradict yourself several times before this thread dies out. By the way, have you figured out if you play with your lips compressed or not, inquiring minds would like to know.

_________________


[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2002-10-18 22:34 ]

[edtaylor]

I am copying over a post I made on another forum thread because it received no comment there:

" I just tried an experiment. I curled my tongue toward the rear, rolling it a bit with the tip securely anchored to the roof of my mouth, then played high notes using lip compression. I did this hopefully to get the tongue out of the equation since I cannot discern any tongue arch or whatever as I normally ascend.

I did this because I began to wonder, if John is right and we are all doing the same thing, it might be analogous to motorcycle steering, some think they are just leaning around a turn, but truth is we are all countersteering. However, my tongue experiment surprised me."

I tried it again and got a double C by lip compression only. Now I am not pretending it was a musical or easy to nail double C, but it was by lip compression.
_________________
Ed Taylor . . . a Messianic gentile

[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

[bj]

[edtaylor]

From John's post,

"EVERY player tested (and there were many) indeed arched their tongues as they played higher - whether they had believed they did or not prior to the research experiment."

In my experiment I forced my tongue into a position that It could not arch as I ascended. That was the purpose of the experiment!
_________________
Ed Taylor . . . a Messianic gentile

[John Mohan]

Dear Ed,

The point I was trying to make, is that like you, many of the participants of Haynie's experimental research were sure they did not need to arch their tongues to play higher, and were quite surprized to see that they actually did upon the viewing of the video of them playing (including Maurice Andre).

I understand what you are saying about what you can do with your tongue. I find that I can play notes up to a certain register (about D above High C in my case) and place my tongue what seems like all over the inside of my mouth and still maintain the note. I can even curl it up and back and touch the back of my soft palate with the tip of my tongue while maintaining a note. And this could lead one to think they don't really need tongue arch. But what I am doing while doing this tongue-movement, is maintaining a certain air-pressure and air-velocity through my lips as I do this. If one area of my tongue is moved a certain way, then almost-automatically, another part of it is changing to compensate and maintain the note, and perhaps also my lips are compressing more and/or perhaps I am blowing harder and/or perhaps I start using more mouthpiece pressure to compensate and maintain the note. The human tongue is one of the most developed muscle systems of our body. The infinite movements and adjustments it has learned to make in our lifetimes through speech development (and trumpet development) creates a finely-tuned instrument that cannot be excactly measured in all its movements and the way it works.

As I wrote, up to a High D or so, I can move my tongue around to a certain extent. But up above that, in the final octave of my range I can't get away with this type of movement of my tongue. Then I find I must arch my tongue up and forward or I don't get the notes.

It would be a wonderful thing if somehow, we could all get together and replicate John Haynie's (and later, Claude Gordon's) research again. Then we wouldn't use so much ofour time debating this point.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

[OCTA-C]

"GOOD FOR HER!" and "KUDO's TO YOU JOHN!!"
Actually I think you're just teaching her trumpet so that you can save splitting the pay for a few of those duet gigs!!

Keep it up !!!
_________________
Jay S.

"May the good sound be yours!"

"Always remember to blow into the proper end of the horn!"-circa. 1900 (Harry Gardoon)

[Liad Bar-EL]

She got that arched tongue by saying "Yikes" for all the years they have been married; so, this high C was a natural for her.

Now tell us the truth, was this in your contract of marriage?

BTW, should you ever travel out my way, I would like to meet you. Let me know and we'll have lunch.

Great story John.

Liad

[Liad Bar-EL]

Hi John,

First I did not receive your reply on this thread which you mentioned that you posted to me. Maybe it was one of many message that were deleted by the recently performed TH backup (and throw out) operation.

Second, Claude Gordon in his book, Systematic Approach to Daily Practice, states that "Altogether too many students try to put on a roof before they have even built a foundation, and trouble starts immediately." This books covers a 52 week/lesson course to get from Second C below Low C to C above High C. To me, a high C after four days spells danger to chop development (foundation).

Third, maybe there is something that you are not telling us here about her background. What?! She was a professional trombone player for 30 years?!

Liad

[John Mohan]

Yea, I see my post has disappeared!

I think I just made a joke in it that letting her play trumpet was perhaps a bad idea...

Oh yea, that's what I wrote. Then I think I wrote a bit about a drummer I heard about who can play a double C on a trumpet. It's just about the only note he can play. He likes to walk up to the typical unsuspecting trumpet player, ask if he can see the guy's horn, and then wail out a Double C and hand the horn back to the poor trumpet player with the now-deflated-ego.

That's about all.

Don't worry about Anne. She played the C just fine. I told her what to do to play higher notes on trumpet and she just followed my instructions - but she's sticking with her practice of the basic routines in Claude's "Physical Approach" book which at this point only range up to a middle G.

And she is a hobby-level tenor sax player - though she's only had her sax out of the case about twice in the last year.

All for now,

John

[Jim]

Dear Mr. Mohan, Are you saying that tongue-arching occurs AUTOMATICALLY when a player plays high? If so, why does one need to be concerned with concentrating on the phenomenon? Are you suggesting that the naturally occurring arch must be voluntarily exagerated to play high? I may have misunderstood your post so I would appreciated your comments on the above-noted statement. I am also curious why it is thought that tongue arch increases air speed. What if a player has a high palatoglossal arch...what effect do you think tongue arching would have on airspeed in this situation? Would it facilitate the air or would the tongue arch deflect the air superiorward within the oral cavity and resultantly be obstructive to windflow into the horn? Your thoughts are welcome. Thanks, Jim