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Cornet Mouthpieces -C or deep V cup?


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Babystrad
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Cornet Mouthpieces -C or deep V cup? Reply with quote

Hi,

We've all noticed regarding cornet mouthpieces that Bach uses the same cup as for their trumpets but with different shank...

As a new commer in this wonderful world of the cornet - I just got my first one a few weeks ago- and finding this web site a great help- I am french and often came in order to read your comments- I wondered if you cornet pros could provide answers regarding this matter:

1. Do some of you do prefer, and would not ever change, their C cup mouthpiece for a deep V cup one i.e. a Bach for a Denis Wick

2. Did guys like Nat Adderley or Melvin Lastie Sr did used C cup in their carrer ? I believe so.

Thank you all in advance for your answers,

Best regards,

Babystrad [/i]


Last edited by Babystrad on Thu May 25, 2006 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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trumpaholic
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on your chops what you should use. If your a novice wanna be player, the C cup would be a good starting point. If on the other hand your a seasoned player with good chops and air management, then you should go for a traditional cup. Warburton and others have these for the traditional British sound. Bach cups are far too bright for the cornet purist. On the other hand if your into dixi, then it could work out for you.

Listen to your sound, that is the bottom line, if you like it and are pleased, perhaps it is ok, get others to listen to you in a large room. My experience has been of playing on the front line of a brass band and I used a Yamaha 16E, old style which had a 16 drill and I had no problem playing the literature demanding as it is and still playing Crimmond at the end of a performance with all those sustained high C's at the end.

Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect mouthpiece because it just does not exist!
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not an expert on cornet, but know a few... I use a deep V, as I could not easily get the sound I wanted on a C cup. Too "trumpety", especially when pushed hard (dynamically). Even at soft or moderate volumes I found the standard trumpet cup just didn't give me the cornet sound I wanted. Fortunately, mine came with a good selection of deep true cornet mpcs (thanks, Flip!) and I found several I liked.

The only thing I gave up was a little range, which didn't bother me because (a) I don't need as much range on cornet (rarely play over high C on it, and never over high G, at least not in public to date) and (b) the few notes I lost came back with a little practice. If I want a screaming lead sound, I'll grab my trumpet.

The C cup can be easier at first, but I personally advise against it. Better to get the deep V cup and learn to play it with the sound it deserves. Flip Oakes and Curry have "better-than-Bach" rims, and there are many others out there; I believe the only Bach V cup is the 5V.

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Babystrad
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpaholic wrote:
Depends on your chops what you should use. If your a novice wanna be player, the C cup would be a good starting point. If on the other hand your a seasoned player with good chops and air management, then you should go for a traditional cup. Warburton and others have these for the traditional British sound. Bach cups are far too bright for the cornet purist. On the other hand if your into dixi, then it could work out for you.

Listen to your sound, that is the bottom line, if you like it and are pleased, perhaps it is ok, get others to listen to you in a large room. My experience has been of playing on the front line of a brass band and I used a Yamaha 16E, old style which had a 16 drill and I had no problem playing the literature demanding as it is and still playing Crimmond at the end of a performance with all those sustained high C's at the end.

Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect mouthpiece because it just does not exist!


Thank you for your comment "trumpaholic" , but that was not the purpose of my post! but thanks anyway.

"Don", reagarding the screaming sound, I understand what you mean... but still, did Nat or Melvin Lastie did used the cornet with a deep V cup or a "regular" C cup. As they were maybe not into the "english sound".

In order to simplify -and forgeting the Dixie era for a moment- there is meaby a proper american cornet sound. What do you think about that?

Awaiting your answers.

Many thanks
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roynj
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Babystrad,
My current choice of cornet mp is the Flip Oakes #3, which is a traditional deep V design with a large throat and backbore. I switched from a Denis Wick 4 to the Flip Oakes. I have also played a Bach 6 cornet mp, and I found it to be just ok, but not really suitable in the long run. Get yourself a Flip oakes vintage style cornet mp, and you will be happy.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was waiting for Rich Wiley to respond to this. Rich has posted in the past about his preference for a bright cornet sound, and I believe he uses C cup mouthpieces in his cornet playing.

I have both C and V cup cornet mouthpieces, and use whatever mouthpiece I think will work best for the task at hand.

The two Nat Adderley CD's I have show him playing an Olds mouthpiece, without a doubt, and Olds wasn't known to make deep V-cup cornet mouthpieces. The one Rex Stewart CD I have shows him playing a King Master (or identically wrapped) cornet with an Al Cass mouthpiece -- likely another pretty shallow piece.

The fact is, a cornet played with a C cup mouthpiece can have its own unique sound. If that's the sound you want, then by all means use the shallow mouthpiece.
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markp
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also been experimenting with this very thing. I have a great King Master and a super old Distin (like Rich's). I bought a deep-V Flip Oakes 1.5 and a Bach 1 1/2C. The rims of these are about the same.

I've ended up liking the Bach 1 1/2C. It does make the horn sound more trumpet-like, but I try to compensate for that by "thinking darker" and playing softer. That goes a long way in taking off the edge.

The deep-V mouthpiece makes both of my horns sound "dull" and devoid of overtones to my ears. The Bach 1 1/2C lights up with more "colors." This is not a small mouthpiece, by any means.

The deep-V also makes the Distin just about impossible to play above the staff.
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pfrank
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a couple examples of cornet practice... 2006 American style...

On my 68 King Master (which is around a 455 bore and does have a usable 3rd valve slide)(relevant to the nature of it's blow and sound)(every cornet is different!) I use from brightest to darkest: 1. Stork 5P (stock 24 throat)(only the King Master can use it's small bb, and it's a classic Dixiland sound) 2. Stork 3C (opened 25 throat) 3. Stork 3C (opened 24 throat) 4. Stork 5B (opened 24 throat)(this is "the all around" mp, a rich, fat sound 5. Wick 4 1/2 (recorded in December, I sounded like a flugalhorn without the tubbiness that Rich W dislikes) 6. Wick 4. Really dark and very open. (The 4 1/2 is a smaller bore version) Don't need to open up them Wicks, no sir. They slot the upper register pretty well...but it aint easy if I'm very tired.
The other cornet I play allot is a late 90s Bach 300 (I honestly haven't found an easier playing long cornet that I like the sound and playing of)(Bach Strad cornets are too light...and bright)(for me)(and I don't have to protect the 300 so much, it's my traveling horn, my "beater" as Don says) and the all around mp for That is the Stork 5C25, but I often use a Bach 6 for a darker sound. I don't use the 5P in this one cause it bottoms out. The Wicks work great on this one too, especially the 4.
Playing cornets with a stock 27 throat is a waste of time IMHO. (Unless you Like sounding nasal...)
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markp wrote:
The deep-V mouthpiece makes both of my horns sound "dull" and devoid of overtones to my ears.

I've found the same thing. The deeper and more "V" shaped the mouthpiece is, the more dull the sound is. If you're trying for the sound of a certain era (as our Civil War band does), that's OK, because that's how the horns sounded. If you're performing on cornet in a modern setting, you should use whatever mouthpiece gives you the sound and range you want (or need) for the gig.

I don't really like the sound of a C cup mouthpiece on cornet except for dixieland and maybe some concert band parts, but I'll agree that the high range can be easier with one. I also don't like cornet/mouthpiece combinations that sound like flugelhorns. I've found that a Bach 6 gives me a flexible sound and good range on my cornet, a Bach 184G large bore. It's a very deep cup, but not a V, and has a more open backbore (#24) than most of Bach's other cornet mouthpieces. I tried a Flip Oakes mouthpiece and the throat was WAY too open for me. The 6 can sound rich and sweet, or can peel paint if necessary - but still with a cornet sound.

Just my 2 cents worth of ramblings.
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roynj
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might also add that it takes a bit of time to develop one's chops and sound concept to the level where one can transition from a C cup to the deep V type mouthpiece effectively and still retain the overtones in the sound. In my case, it took about a month to really get the sound I was looking for with my Flip Oakes #3. But now, I'm a big believer in this traditional American cornet sound.
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Babystrad
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all,

Thank you all for your comments. There's a lot to think about in any of your post.

markp: -regarding the compensation, I dig what you are saying as it is the way I think the "blowing" matter.

pfrank, considering the amount of mouthpieces you are using, I was wondering -do you actually come with a lory to your gigs?

nieuwguyski- Hey, I knew I might be right for Nat!

roynj- I will definately try a deep V-cup one of these days -maybe not in order to get the "traditional american cornet sound" as it does not ring any bell to me though- and why not a Flip oaks, if I ever can find one in France. I hope so.

Looking forward to give you further impressions on this matter.

Best regards to you all.

Babystrad

P.S. Any more comment on this subjet is more than welcome.


Last edited by Babystrad on Wed May 17, 2006 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Claude Gordon CG Personal Cornet Mouthpiece.

This mouthpiece is a fairly deep modified-V Cup mouthpiece. And it's largely based on the mouthpiece Herbert L. Clarke gave to Claude to play when he was Clarke's student. It is fantastic for cornet playing. See a scan of it at:

http://kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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Babystrad
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
The Claude Gordon CG Personal Cornet Mouthpiece.

This mouthpiece is a fairly deep modified-V Cup mouthpiece. And it's largely based on the mouthpiece Herbert L. Clarke gave to Claude to play when he was Clarke's student. It is fantastic for cornet playing. See a scan of it at:

http://kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM

Sincerely,

John Mohan

Hi John,

Thanks for the link
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riffi1
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a good compromise is the curry deep cup series. Not too bright but very comfortable to play if you are used to a c cup on trumpet. I had mine sent to me from mouthpiece express and it was a very reasonable price.

rod
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pfrank
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Babystrad wrote:

pfrank, considering the amount of mouthpieces you are using, I was wondering -do you actually come with a lory to your gigs?


NO! Sure, there are a few mps in my private daily practice but for a live gig I'll bring Maybe 2 horns with maybe 2 mps for any particular horn: it really depends on what kind of playing it is. Recording sessions are another thing too. Real dark cornet sounds (possibility of closer micking tha
n trumpet) may be heard in a recording that wouldn't work for some loud live gigs, for instance using the Wicks...only if space is assured (like obligatos between verses) or acoustic improv in a nice live space...

The truth is I'm always seeking to limit the amount of equipment I'm responsible for live...there is a point of too much data, how much gear you can protect (keep safe) and gigs are about expression...equipment experriments are curtailed while on stage. (Well...unless it's an electronica/avant jazz/noise performance...which unfortunatly tend to be more for the musicians than the audience...)
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Babystrad
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everybody,

And thanks Pfrank for your answer.

Just wanted to add- I just spoke with a 80 something old friend of my family -:my wife british side, ish!- that used to be a professional player- I'll add some more information regarding it's career some times if you ever are interested- and here are some notes:

1. Eddy used to play a Couesnon Flug. Why not!!
2. Eddy -and that is why I'm stated this in our discussion as I believe this might be interesting- was playing his Benson sheperd's crook cornet with a 7c cup!! can you believe it!! Ok, he is british- ish once more!

Best regards,

Babystrad

PLEASE NOTE-EDIT:
in the point 2. above I named the brand Besson.
Please read Boosey & Hawkes instead- as that what makes all the beauty of this mouthpiece/cornet association by, at the time, a top of the range english pro player!


Last edited by Babystrad on Thu May 25, 2006 1:20 pm; edited 3 times in total
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, the death of the cornet as far as mass-popularity with the student players occured finally in the very early '70s.

The shepherd crook cornets and deep-V mouthpieces ruled the day during the peak of the band craze (around the turn of the TWENTIETH century), when trumpets were very long and cylindrical and with tiny bores called "pea-shooter" trumpets. Thus you had super mellow . . . and super shrill and vulgar.

The 1910's brought us a cornet-like trumpet in the F. Besson . . . and a trumpet-like cornet in the Conn New Wonder and soon matched with tons of "long bell" cornets. By the 1930s, F. Besson trumpets (and clones like the Conn 2B and Bach Strad, among many others) pushed the cornets out of the symphonies.

Introduction of trumpet top mouthpieces on cornet shanks, with their "C" cups turned a long bell cornet into virtually a trumpet, albiet a slightly weaker-projecting one.

By the 1960s many of the long bell cornets were essentially trumpets with cornet receivers on their leadpipes to allow a "cornet" mouthpiece that wa s really just a "C" cup trumpet 'piece that fit a cornet receiver.

In the early '70s, a leading university tested music majors in blind tests and "discovered" that no one could tell the difference between a Bach 37 trumpet and Bach 37 (long bell) cornet with applicable Bach 3C mouthpieces inserted. (SURPRISE!)

Thus, the long bell cornet died a sure death at the time . . . for it wasn't QUITE as powerful as it's trumpet brother.

FULL CIRCLE . . .

In the 21st century, American trumpeters are rediscovering the LOST cornet sound of the gentle old shepherd's crook-belled cornets WITH deep-V, REAL cornet-designed mouthpieces.

I take my shepherd's crook cornet on every gig I play, just in case it will fit with a certain sound I want to make . . . and usually it gets played . . . sometimes quite a bit!!!

LONG BELL CORNETS TODAY?

Well, I have a couple of marvelous ones (a '39 Conn Victor and a '61 Reynolds Argenta) . . . but if I want to sound like a trumpet I've got my Wild Thing trumpet that out "long-bells" 'em in most venues . . . and if I do play 'em, its with a deep-V CORNET mouthpiece. Heck, back in the '60s, band directors with tons of cornets and NO trumpet players would assign the trumpet parts to Conn 80-A Victor cornet players on "C" mouthpieces . . . they sound just like a trumpet (almost)!

95% of my cornet playing is on the short bell versions . . . and always with a deep-V cup. I always mic it if possible, so I don't ever need to "force" the sound to make it louder.

Trumpeters new to cornets will subconsciously revert to trying to make their cornets sound like a trumpet, and this is really bad. Over time, one learns to approach trumpet and cornet totally differently as far as sound and approach. Once you do, the deep-V quits being tubby and simply becomes gentle and sweet.

A tubby, fluglehorn-like sound is a result of inadvertently forcing a more powerful sound out of a short bell . . . thus taking on more power and tubbiness, ala a flugle. Over time, and with lots of sacrifice and tons of ear, one gets that sweet cornet sound that is neither projecting, tubby or forced.

Its a wonderful sound to add to one's arsenal of trumpet and fluglehorn!

MY VOTE?

Deep-V all the way, baby!!!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner
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Babystrad
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Glad that I get a smile from you as you can be grumpy some times when you feel like it!

I have done approximately the same note on the "cornet to trumpet" subject in a previous topic- but quite shorter and by memory. So thank you for adding your science to this matter as this may be one of the main turning point in the Jazz history- that is to say, a bigger sound for a bigger audience... but mostly a white one. Hum. That's entertainment. Al Jolson, etc...

Anyway, there is much much more to say about it. And probably within another topic.

I really appreciated your highlighting on the playing scene from the 60's to the present one. It's great to hear such interesting facts from guys who actually "live" the trumpet life like you do.

Regarding the cornet and the trumpet sound, it's absolutely obvious that one should not sound like the other. Like it would be a nonsense to make a flugelhorn sound like a trumpet. Though there have been some temptations to do so here and there I should presume.

Regarding the cornet itself- the first thing I personally noticed was the easy blowing capacity, at any range- amazing. Than, that you should deal with the air pressure much more efficiently than with the trumpet. Which is of course the consequence of the easy blowing matter - while this does not stand for the Flugelhorn.

I got exhausted from going too fast from one instrument to the other while "testing" them without thinking I would do so- change instrument within a couple of seconds-, therefore mentally prepared myself to do so. That was a lesson.

Again, I definitely agree with you that each instrument much have it's own unique sound. And I should add be played in itís own unique way.

Because that is what itís all about and thatís the fun of it. No?

Best regards.


Last edited by Babystrad on Thu May 25, 2006 4:12 am; edited 4 times in total
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

does it mean that to get a genuine cornet sound, it is better to buy a vintage one, or is it possible to buy, to day, a modern cornet with an authentic sound?
Thanks a lot.
Marc
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In almost all cases, its better to buy a top-quality, brand new horn of the authentic type, rather than deal with the typical vintage horn that probably has lots of issues.

As wonderful as my 3-Star is, my WT short cornet would beat it, hands down even if you could transport it back to the day when a brand new, 1913 3-Star came off the bench.

I wasn't in the market for a new cornet when I got a chance to play that new, gold WT short model at a cornet collector's meeting a few years ago . . . for I never thought I could beat that nice Boston. Once I played it though, there was no way I wasn't going to find a way to get that awesome specimen!

Virtually all my cornet performing since has been on the Wild Thing cornet. I'm a very firm believer in getting the best tools one can attain . . . when one wishes to perform a task exceptionally well.

On A vs. B recordings of the 3-Star and the Wild Thing I truly can't tell the difference . . . although the WT does "fill" a live room better due to it's unique and very fast bell flare. This also favors the WT in modern practice.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner
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