Caruso and chop setting

[Jim]

Certainly I see great value in the teachings of Caruso as I interpret them and in how I have learned to use them through this forum. However, I wonder if these exercises can solidify poor embouchure mechanics as easily as it can develop good mechanics. If one were to perform the exercises as stated in the book with an inadequate setting, he wouldn't make much progress, would he? I did the program for a year with no increase in range whatsoever; I don't blame the exercises...I feel that my embouchure was not adequate so as to fully benefit from them. I have since moved to a more puckered setting and am back on the exercises again. Caruso's concepts make great sense to me and this is why I am committed to deriving more benefit from them. Hopefully my current chop setting will allow me to develop better control and power in the controlling muscles of my embouchure. Jim

[Jerry Freedman]

I'm sure that Charly Raymond would give you a much better answer but I'll jump in anyway. When I started studying with Carmine I was up the creek with out a paddle chop wise. Before I started with the standard routines ( 6 noters, seconds etc) I spend some time lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing out of Schlossberg. I then progressed to doing the seconds and thirds very softly. When Carmine thought that my chops were ready for the full treatment I started on the 6notes, seconds etc. The point is Carmine made sure my "base" was in good shape before I started the calisthenics. If you have some doubts about your current chop settings do some free buzzing/mouthpiece buzzing. I don't think it matters much what you buzz just do it. I also don't think you need to make a lifelong practice of free buzzing/mouthpeice buzzing but Carmine ( and Pops) seem to think it gets your chops set correctly without paralyzing over analysis ( How am I doing, Charly?)

J. Freedman

[histrumpet]

Hi,
Charly has recommended that I spend some time before each practice session playing the leadpipe. The explanation was to play the leadpipe and don't set your chops, just put your lips together, put the horn to your lips with the tuning slide out, and blow air. This sets the embouchure, do it for 3 to 5 min. before and during practice whenever your chops need a feel for "the setting".

[_bugleboy]

• JIM: However, I wonder if these exercises can solidify poor embouchure mechanics as easily as it can develop good mechanics.
  
  CR: No. Not really. If done correctly, the calisthenics will expose the muscles of the face to the demands of trumpet playing and let them figure out how to balance themselves to accommodate these demands.
  
  JIM: If one were to perform the exercises as stated in the book with an inadequate setting, he wouldn't make much progress, would he?
  
  CR: Don't think of a setting as inadequate. Think of it as in need of further development.
  
  JIM: I did the program for a year with no increase in range whatsoever;
  
  CR: I don't think it would be presumptuous for a student to expect to see improvement in a year's time. But a lot depends on where he's coming from AND how he is implementing the exercises. MCFB might be confusing for a student if there is no monitoring by a player familiar with how the system works.
  
  JIM: I feel that my embouchure was not adequate so as to fully benefit from them.
  
  CR: The really "inadequate" embouchures are the ones that can benefit the most!
  
  JIM: Hopefully my current chop setting will allow me to develop better control and power in the controlling muscles of my embouchure.
  
  CR: Just so long as you don't pre-decide what that setting should be, and then strive to maintain that setting during your calisthenic practice. You must accept the fact you don't know what is best for your chops, and you probably never will, in terms of the setting. Only Mother Nature knows and to achieve balance in your embouchure you ought to let her decide. This will transpire when the calisthenics are done as directed and then forgotten about. In other words, you play the calisthenics and THEN go about playing music (all other forms of practice and playing) the way you always do. Do not intentionally try to incorporate into your playing what you might think the calisthenics are doing. You must let it incorporate by itself, at it's own and in it's own good time. This is the way to make it happen the quickest. On the other hand, if you try to hurry it along, usually you will cause the progress to go slower.
  
  JIM: I have since moved to a more puckered setting and am back on the exercises again.
  
  CR: Great! Hopefully, this forum will help you to get better results than before. If you want to start an exercise with some intentional pucker, just be sure that you don't necessarily try to hold on to that puckered feeling while doing the calisthenics. Literally just let your chops go wherever the exercises take them. Above all, do not use a mirrior to make sure that your chops are "right."
  
  
• JF: I spend some time lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing out of Schlossberg.
  
  CR: These are great exercises for getting the lips in the right position. You lip buzz or mpc buzz an exercise and then play it on the trumpet immediately. You're trying to teach the chops how to do something they struggle with from something they can do easier.
  
  JF: I also don't think you need to make a lifelong practice of free buzzing/mouthpeice buzzing
  
  CR: I agree. Just like pedals, free buzzing and mpc buzzing are merely a means to an end. When that end is reached, it may not be necessary to continue the buzzing routines. But they will always be there if you need to go back to them.
  
  
• histrumpet has mentioned doing leadpipe long tones. I am finding this kind of drill to be another powerful teaching tool for getting the setting established that you will use to start all playing, including the calisthenics. Along the line of "settings" keep in mind, that the "sweet spot" philosophy that gets kicked around from time to time, is probably nonsense for most players, if not all. Any place on the lips that you can get a sound can be developed. And it can be developed to the highest level. Personally, I think that players who believe in "sweet spots" are more prone to manipulation to get a sound. Hence, certain spots on the lips manipluate better than others.
  
  A Caruso student strives to reduce manipulation to a minimum and let balanced muscles produce the requisite lip vibration.

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-11-09 22:25 ]

[PH]

Jim: I wonder if these exercises can solidify poor embouchure mechanics as easily as it can develop good mechanics.

PH: If done correctly there is NO chance this will happen. The key is probably that (as you say in your opening sentence) you are INTERPRETING the exercises and their instructions rather than just following the Four Rules literally and not thinking any further than that.

Jim: If one were to perform the exercises as stated in the book with an inadequate setting, he wouldn't make much progress, would he?

PH: That is how I did it (inadequately) at first and the studies transformed me. My setting was a disaster area-a total wreck-when I started. I have seen the same thing time and again with my friends and students. I have never seen anyone do the Caruso studies properly and stay the same or regress more than temporarily. If you did them for a year with no improvement I'll wager you were doing them incorrectly.

[Jim]

Dear Pat, Charly and all who responded to my post. My range did not improve at all during the year I previously committed to Caruso but my tone improved and I feel I improved in areas other than range. My tendency is unfortunately toward a setting which pins my lips against my teeth. I think that such a setting was doomed to failure no matter how committed to the Caruso exercises I was. When I ascend even today I must consciously, albeit subtly, think about keeping a bit of a pucker or else I don't fare too well with the exercises. I am now approaching the program with a hopefully correct idea of adequate chop function without over-manipulating my embouchure during the exercises. I just have been trying to keep my chops in front of my teeth to avoid premature cessation of vibration due to the lip-pinning phenomenon previously stated. I do hope I'm on the right track as I can play nicely and comfortably as long as I stay around top-line G or below. Beyond that, I labor too hard and my tone os not at all relaxed. Even with private instruction for a year I was not able to overcome my range shortcomings. Jim

[maynard-46]

Hi Jim,
You're not experiencing anything different from what we ALL go through as trumpet players! I studied with Carmine from 1968 untill 1971 when I went on the road for a couple of years. It didn't make a difference if I was in Canada or North Dakota...if I started going through a bad streak I'd call him. I think just hearing his voice made me feel better!

When I was studying with him I had much the same problems that you describe and had a tendency to blow it WAY out of proportion. He NEVER panicked...and there wasn't ONE lesson that I came out of that I didn't feel 100% better than when I went in! He always told me to drop three words from my vocabulary..."BUT I CAN"T...(whatever)". He would say...start off maybe by saying "But I'd like to be able to..."! I soon got his point. I was being too negative and sometimes, more often than not, too hard on myself...which it sounds like you might be doing to yourself.

His method/exercises work...and the best part of it ...they will take care of themselves without you worrying or getting upset about them. They're not intended to sound beautiful...NOBODY does when playing them! Compare them to exercises that a football player does during practice. He doesn't do them during the game but they certainly helped him to prepare and play the game better!!! They're simply a means to an end...NOT an end-all!

You state that you're main problem is obtaining range...mine (among other things!) was tonguing. When I first went to him I kept asking him to help me with tonguing and he kept telling me to keep doing the stuff he was giving me and the tongue will find it's natural/best position (or level) on it's own. As his exercises got better so did my tonguing...without me worrying it to death.

I 'm new to this forum so I don't want to keep rattling any longer ...although I very easily could about Carmine!...but I guess my point is...as long as you feel you've improved in some facet of playing...the exercises must be workiing for you...even though you may not realize it or see it! Trumpet playing progresses in minute steps...which for those of us that want things yesterday...it's a tough pill to swallow sometimes!

I wish you good luck on your playing ..and I apologize to anyone reading this if the respect that I have for Carmine kind of got me carried away!!!
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