Inferiority of monel valves

Cliff Fitch · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:56 am Post subject:

Although My Getzen Severinsen valves feel great, they dont compare to the Monel valves in my Schilke. As long as they dont give me any trouble, I could care less what they are made out of.

riffi1 · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:11 am Post subject:

I have a range of horns including Getzens, Bachs, Yamahas, Conns and Olds. The latter brands are all approximately 50+ years old ie not monel. While I love my Bachs I would have to say that both Getzens ( a 20 year old Eterna picc and a brand new 3850 cornet) have the best valves and need the least attention. Of course the valve oil choice plays a major part. As another poster has previously mentioned switching away from petroleum based product to synthetic has made a huge difference.

cheers
Rod
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Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

Propaganda? I don't think so. All I have ever done on here is state the facts as we see them. To explain why we build horns the way we do and our reasoning behind that. If you think monel valves are better, more power to you. For years, monel makers have talked down the use of nickel plated valves. I am just balancing that out. And as I have said before, if monel valves were superior why is it that they only cover their valves for 1-5 years and we cover ours for a lifetime? The truth is you can build a good monel valve just like you can build a bad nickel valve. However, nothing compares to a quality built nickel silver valve in longevity and performance.

As far as using ceramics, that I don't know. Getzen tried aluminum cast valves in the seventies. They never made it out of the R&D phase. While they mechanically performed all right, the just didn't "sound" right. I suspect ceramics would be the same. I have also heard talk about titanium pistons as an alternative. I wonder how that would work. I would think that they would last a long time, but the manufcaturing costs would be pretty high.

Brett Getzen
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7cw · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 217

oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

mike ansberry · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:42 am Post subject:

Hey, Brett. I appreciate the level of experience and expertise you bring to the forum. What do you know about stainless steel valves? The valves on my Eclipse feel great. Most of the posts that I have read here and at TM seem to think that Getzen and Bauerfind are the 2 best valves out there.
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James Becker · Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:

This debate over piston material and finish is only half the equation when it comes to valve action. No one here has mentioned the valve casings. How they are processed and sized contribute to good or bad valve action.

Does the manufacturer predispose the brass casings to etching through excessive pickling?
Chemical deleading is a common practice by large manufacturers and predisposes brass to accelerated corrosion.

Are the casing inner dimensions held to a consistent tolerance?
A famous French manufacturer's valve casing dimensions are often "all over the map".
Student step up models that offer Monel pistons are often poorly fit with too much clearance to be reliable.

Most importantly, does the operator maintain lubrication?
By the time most instruments arrive in our shop with valve problems they are badly corroded. Oil serves two purposes, lubrication AND protection against corrosion. With deposits of "green crud" or copper carbonate the zinc will be leached out of the brass alloy and copper carbonate acts an an abrasive to accelerate wear of moving parts.

Having measured Bach valves before rebuilding, rarely if ever does the Monel piston show signs of wear. The dimensions have not changed rather, the casing have worn out. When maintained, a new trumpet valve should last 10 to 15 years before any major work is needed. However, if you fail to maintain your valves you will be looking at a valve rebuild much sooner.

How many of you would expect your vehicle's engine to make it to over 200,000 miles without diligent attention to lubrication and maintenance. And how many of you still drive a car for ten, twenty or more years?

Jim Becker
Brass Repair Technician
Osmun Music Inc.

nieuwguyski · Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject:

There seems to be some confusion on this thread about the difference between nickel plate and nickel silver. Nickel silver is an alloy, as is Monel. Nickel silver is never plated onto something else. Nickel plate is basically pure nickel plated over a base metal.
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mathewsj · Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject:

mathewsj · Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: bach strad

My Bach Strad always needs to be oiled and I have some sort of corrosion or wear on some of the valves. I bought it brand new five years ago.
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Jesse M.

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I have an old Conn 60B that I had Anderson do the valves on about 12 years ago.

I just did the math and the horn has about eight thousand "gig" hours on it (thats not counting practice room hours either). I could swear the valves are just as tight as when it came back from Anderson 12 years ago.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I oil my valves several times each day, and during the gig. The oil keeps the saliva from attacking the casings as well as flushing the dirt and dust out.

Chris

al-uk · Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:43 am Post subject:

I can oil my Bach valves once, and, as long as I play nearly every day, they won't need doing until I clean the thing out (once every 6 weeks or so). What a pain to have to waste so much oil by oiling them several times a day. Besides, I always figured that too much oil would result in a quicker build up of grease and grime, causing more valve problems and meaning you have to clean them out more often

Also, is there much difference in the types of springs used by different manufacturers, and does this have a bearing on things?
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cleanhead77 · Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:23 am Post subject:

What about older Conn "crysteel" valves? Anyone know what they were made of?
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Trumpeter58 · Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:49 am Post subject:

Dave Mickley · Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:52 am Post subject:

I just hate it when J. Brecker and B. Getzen throws common sense and facts in the way of all of our opinions - knock it off you two. As a machinist and machine repairman, I see how proper lubrication prolongs the life of machinery. I also see what using little or the wrong lubrication can do. I have found out that the manufacter has spent a lot of time and research on what works best for their application, future sales and reputation depend on it. Getzen valves last a long time and with the proper maintenace monel will last a good long time too, just not as long. For most of us having to re-do your valves every ten years or so is not a big issue so no matter what kind of valves your horn has and you like then more power to you. I have several different brands of horns and it seems that different oils seem to work better in different horns. I use Hetmans and ulta pure depending on the horn. I even have 1 horn that came new from the factory with 1 stainless and 2 monel vales. I have talked with a rep and was told that wasn't possible but one look tells it all. The horn plays good so why worry about it. The way they prep the valves determines how they feel. I have lapped in valves on several of my older horns that had lightening quick action but I would let a pro take care of any problems on a good horn. Just rambling on - - Dave
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Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

Right now, the warranty only applies to those valves made from the time we bought the company back to the present. When the purchase was made, we covered some of the previous owner's stuff, but we can't cover it all. Unfortunately for us, the old owners didn't really keep up the quality standards on stuff. We would probably go out of business trying to cover everything they messed up under warranty. If you want to know for sure, contact Mary Rima here at the company. She could tell you what horns are and are not covered.

Brett Getzen
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James Becker · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:56 am Post subject:

Valve casings part II

One little known fact is the process of brazing a valve block together softens the brass casings. Only two manufacturers I am aware of have done something to address this issue.

Paris Selmer trumpets of yester year were made with a sleeve fit inside the valve block that has the knuckles attached. This is intended to give the valves longer life due to the fact that the casing liners have not been softened by high temperature brazing. This is simular to lining aluminum engines blocks with steel sleeves to reduce wear of the softer material. You can see the stepped exterior on K-Modified and older Paris Selmer trumpets.

Schilke follows up their brazing of their valve blocks with a heat treatment intended to reverse the softening caused by high temperature brazing. This hardening of the cylinders gives them more resistance to wear.

Now comes the interesting part.

If everything contributes to the sound quality of an instrument, then the fact that Bach valve casings are left soft or annealed contributes to the overall "Bach sound". So in the end if you seek that sound quality, then putting up with greater valve wear is part of the price you have to pay. All the more reason to keep your valves oiled!

So if you were to plate Bach pistons with hard nickel you still have the issues associated with their brass valve block.

Jim Becker
Brass Repair Specialist
Osmun Music Inc.

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

Now see, that is something I don't understand. It has always been my understanding that brass, unlike say steel, is softened when heated and harded when worked. Hence the need for so many annealing steps when doing things like making one piece bells or drawing tubing. I'm no metallurgy expert, but it seems to me that heat treating the casings after brazing would only soften them more. As I understand it, the action doesn't harden the casing. Instead, it provides for a more uniform softness by eliminating the huge differences between the brazed and unbrazed areas on the casing.

From what I have read on the subject, the more ideal situation for a bearing surface is to have one part be hard and one be soft. This allows for uniform wear. Also, you achieve smoother action of the bearing itself, in this case a trumpet piston, because the piston and casing can be better matched to one another.

Brett Getzen
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James Becker · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject:

Precipitation hardening is a process that was explained to me by Larry Seavers (formerly with Getzen and now works for Schilke) and *Steve Shires. This process is performed AFTER annealing to restore hardness in an otherwise soft alloy. It can also have the effect of brightening up the sound of a bell that is too soft.

See link for more information on precipitation hardening of copper alloys.

http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm

Jim Becker
Brass Repair Specialist
Osmun Music Inc.

*Formerly with West Music (repairman), Schilke (bell spinner), Osmun (repairman and trombone builder), Edwards (design and sales), and has been producing his own line of trombones since 1995.

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

Very interesting. My question is though, does the brass used for valve casings fall into that range of four metals for which precipitation hardening is possible? That is very interesting. Perhaps worth another look.

Oh, and you missed Eastman in Steve's list of achievements.

Brett Getzen
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