beyond the classical range! How??

[trumpetgeek234]

I still don't understand some things about those "beyond double/triple c players".
If they are able to play those high notes that easily, every single one of them should be able to play the brandenburg No. 2 about 10 times in a row without getting tired. But I don't think that is true, because then the brandenburg wouldnt be a spezial thing any more. I am wondering if those high notes are usable for any music anymore or are just squeezed out.
To me it seems like there is several different kinds of ranges. The classical range that goes maybe up to G (or B in the Michael Haydn trumpet concerto), and then the Jazz range that is more a squeezing out of notes which can be extremely high.
Is that true, or am I getting something wrong there?
Maybe the problem for me is, that I can't think beyond the high classical G. Please help me with my "range disturbance"
PB

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetgeek234 on 2001-12-26 18:21 ]

[_bugleboy]

PB,

If you have an e-mail address, i will send you a sound file that will amaze!
CR

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2001-12-26 18:39 ]

[trumpetgeek234]

Anyways....

[vivace]

Can i have the sound file too?

vivace@metrocast.net
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"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song." - Louis Armstrong

[tom turner]

Hi,

As a classically trained musician, with a performance range of just an adaquate high G (above high C) for 40 years, I too always wondered how those "freaks" did it. Surely I couldn't do it . . . and surely my professor couldn't do it . . . or any music teacher/trumpeter I'd studied with. Only a few "freaks" could play up there.

They also taught me all the opinions and sayings to make me feel better too . . . things like, "98% of the music isn't written that high," "Tone and technique come before range (which is, of course, true)," etc.

Then a chance meeting with "Mr. Triple C," Lee Adams showed me that I could also share in this secret the "freaks" know . . . of how to extend the useable, musical range of the trumpet much higher so I could have tone, technique AND range!

Lenny Pickett, the awesome sax player on Saturday Night Live, "lives" in the saxophone "stratosphere" playing notes that you won't find on a fingering chart. To me he is opening up a new way a sax can sound and be played . . . to others he is probably committing heresy. You'll find the same opinions on the altissimo register(S) of the modern trumpet.

Speaking of "modern" trumpets, most trumpets today are clones of the early 1900s French Besson trumpet, including Bach. This design is wonderful range wise through the high G . . . but performs like an airliner trying to fly with two-foot long wings on the Ab or A above it--they just won't slot the notes!!! With this limitation, most all traditional music was kept, for the Bb trumpet, at or below the high G. [NOTE: To be more commercially successful, MOST music is arranged MUCH LOWER for the trumpets, usually not above high C, so that average amateurs can play (BUY) it.

Some of the new generation trumpets will cleanly slot even the Ab and A . . . plus, of course, the easier to slot notes above that point too . . . opening up the trumpet's usable range another octave or more. Unfortunately, most young players moving up to "pro-line" horns can't play high enough yet to test them in this area when they purchase their pro horn.

There are many wonderful sounding trumpeters, tone-wise, in the altissimo register yet, until mastered properly, this area of the horn is most revealing of improper embouchere and practice. Obviously, if you don't have proper equipment to "fly" up there it will hinder you greatly from discovering this.

Yeah, everyone gets tired when playing demanding music, yet in many groups the lead trumpeter is not the first . . . but the LAST trumpeter to get tired!!! Proper technique and embouchere development makes a huge difference. I re-recorded an arrangement of "Battle Hymn of the Republic" for my new patriotic CD. Before, at the end of this five minute, non-stop, multi-modulating marathon I'd stagger to the finish on a high B and . . . if not feeling too bad, I'd slur it up to the high E for the fermata. This time around I do this . . . and then slur up to a beautiful, clear double E!!! (thanks, Superchops!) I did four non-stop takes of this song and nailed it all four times! (again, thanks Superchops!)

I'm looking forward to a New Years Eve gig down in Florida I'm playing for the sixth straight year with a big band from down there. I've only been on the Super Chops method since April and this particular band hasn't heard me since I played lead with them last New Year's Eve. I think they will be surprised this year!

If I can do it . . . most anybody can do it. There are no gimmicks in this world but, with proper training and hard work, I believe that most players can develop a decent altissimo register.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2001-12-26 23:35 ]

[funkymonkey]

Hey Mr. Turner,

What's the altissimo range?

[Emb_Enh]

trumpetgeek234 wrote:

''I still don't understand some things about those "beyond double/triple c players".
If they are able to play those high notes that easily, every single one of them should be able to play the brandenburg No. 2 about 10 times in a row without getting tired.'' [end]

with respect....maybe we just don't want to play that style of music. Perhaps your not too keen on playing Jazz! : )
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[Mikester]

Trumpetgeek234,

You have inspired me to pull out my classical CD, .mp3's, and arrangements. There is some amazing stamina and range in some of the classical soloes out there.

Thank you for naming a few. I am taking Haydn in Eb Major, Telemann in D Minor, and Fasch in D Major, amongst others in my car while I travel today. I have been listening to Brandenberg (sp?) and a few more.

I may even buy another classical CD today!

My goal is to be well rounded. This type of study and listening helps me round out my big band screamin'. Which actually has become more musical and less of a scream.
Thanks again.

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Mike

Keep your chin up!

http://www.bigbandofpraise.com

[ This Message was edited by: mikester on 2001-12-28 00:22 ]

[brnt99]

"This type of study and listening helps me round out my big band screamin'. Which actually has become more musical and less of a scream"

Sometimes I wonder if screaming high notes is about the player and not the listener.I don't think the average listener is moved by a screaming trumpet. Maybe for one or two songs--but they are moved in the same way people are moved by a freak in a side show. They are amazed at the trick but not moved by the music.I don't know how many times I have read people refer trumpet playing to singing. I don't know about you but a singer screaming high notes gets pretty boring real fast.Maybe its just a personal preferance thing, but if you ask the average trumpet player or listener to name favorite trumpet players, the usual list will include Chet Baker, Miles Davis,Al Hirt, Harry James,Maurice Andre, Bud Herseth,etc. etc.None of these trumpet players are about screaming. They are about singing with the trumpet.

[tom turner]

Hi brnt99, good post!

You are so right about the high range probably appealing more to the listeners who understand the demands of the instrument than to the average Joe.

There is a time for high notes, and a time not to play high notes. Some players, proud of their new-found abilities, tend to overdo it . . . and some of them never stop (a term for that is called "lack of musicality."

However, although the "tone" players flock to hear the "tone" artists and the "technical" wizards flock to hear the "technical" artists, the high note guys surely love Maynard, et al.

I gotta tell you a story that happened to me this year to show me what the rank and file jazz audience liked. As a 40 year "tone" player, I played a jazz gig this early summer as a guest soloist with a four piece group in a jazz club in Tallahassee, FL. I'd only been switched to Superchops for a few months and was still learning that strange new additional octave that I now could play easily above the high G.

I played it safe until the last set (I'd already played a "classical" wedding gig that afternoon, followed by a 3-hour wedding reception across town in a pop group immediately before the jazz gig). Then, for the last set with the jazz group, I let it all hang out . . . allowing my solos to suddenly soar above high G, playing lots of double C's and D's . . . even double G's. Suddenly the crowd went crazy, so I tend to now believe that all people appreciate it when they hear rarely heard stuff coming from the band stand.

Superchops has demystified my long-held belief that high notes were just for a few incredibly talented "freaks." I strongly encourage all trumpet players to stop being discouraged (by teachers and players who can't play high) from developing their extreme upper register . . . for it will set you apart, get you gigs and please the crowds!

Sincerely,

Tom

[tom turner]

Hi funkymonkey,

The "altissimo range" term is probably simply an idea by a marketing type to hang a label on the range above the high G (just above high C).

Going above the high G is more difficult on a mezzo-soprano Bb trumpet (regular Bb) due to the overtone series and the fact that most horns don't want to slot above there.

Naw, I didn't invent the term. I first read about the "altissimo" range on an old 1972 Reynolds trumpet ad for their new "E.R.A." trumpet ("Extended Range Altissimo). They did some neat things to help open up this horn with different bell flares and such. We benefit today from some new trumpets that make our job easier up there and "aren't our father's Oldsmobile" design-wise.

Anyway, the term sounds cool and we need a term to more accurately converse on the "ERA" we are all striving to master.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2001-12-27 14:58 ]

[Yoinks]

Well, actually, I wouldn't worry about it too much. A high G above high C is the most you should ever really need. Even to play in a professional situation. Lead playing is way more about style, and your ability to lead the ensemble, than just being able to tear out high notes. I have heard many a lead player who can sit and tear out double C's, but frankly their playing is pretty square, and they couldn't play with good style to save their life. Worry about music more than all sorts of insane register.

[Nicholas Dyson]

Well said Yoinks.

I think that's why there is such popularity within the guys that can play that insane register and actually make it musically sound.

I've run into too many guys that can get around above double C with relative ease, but couldn't swing a dead cat.

I heard a wonderful lead player a few years back who never played above a D (2 ledger lines) but swung so hard and laid it back so far he almost fell off the beat!

The guys that do both are a paradox, and great to listen to!
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Ottawa, Canada

[_bugleboy]

One of the common shortcomings, from my experience, with many triple range screamers is that they can't play musically in the high and double high range. What good is a triple C if the notes slopping around between High C and double C suck.

I think the upper register has moved beyond G above high C, though. The G# and A seem to be notes to have these days and the great ones are playing musically to double D.

CR

[brenter]

Hello:

I'm wondering if any of you feel that there can be a difference between range and control. I'll give you an example of what I mean. When I was in college, I often wrote out my solos in jazz band. In some of my solos, I would try to incorporate "high lines," meaning uptempto eighth note passages that utilized high C's and D's. We had a lead player that had consistent and very loud double Bb's. When I showed him what I was trying to play, he had a very difficult time with it. It seemed like if he had to hit and hold a note, then that was easy. However, playing something like I described proved difficult.

At any rate, the best example I can think of in regards to an incredible range is Clifford Brown. He utilized the complete register of his horn. Every note he played was beautifull.

[Yoinks]

Absolutely!!! Having great control up there is also important. Clifford's sound is not the biggest, or the most refined. However, when he plays up there in recordings, it doesn't even sound like he is in the upper register. You look at the transcription and find it hard to beleive that some of those notes were really that high. Clifford could solo like a madman technically up there, and do crazy acrobatics very precisely, without sounding screechy.

[Dustin Lee Wilson]

Ill throw in my two cents....

Its my opinion that music should be made..period. In rehearsal I can pop a double A, but not consistantly. Soo..I don't even try in a concert. But those who can!! Im all for it! Someone mentioned that most trumpet players will name bud herseth, wynton marsalis, chet baker..ect.. as there favorite players (And they are awesome!!!) . I agree some what.. in my moderate experience in music I have only met a few (2)players who would leave out on there list the likes of Maynard Ferguson, Bobby shew, Jon faddis , bill chase ect.... They all bring a new demention to the music...the musical "altisimo". I personally love a great rendition of Mahler with herseth playing or a great solo or melody line both in and out of the altissimo range. This whole thread is just personal preference. Also..people work hard to sound like chet baker or herseth..so whats wrong with someone trying to sound like Maynard, chase, or bobby shew? Each has there own place in musical history!

hope i made sense,(im really tired..lol)

dustin

ps- like I said its MY OPINION so Im not going to arguing it
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