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Flip Oakes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2002 Posts: 532 Location: Oceanside, CA USA
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Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: A Time For Change.... |
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Kanstul a few months ago closed its doors and is no longer in business. Kanstul Musical Instruments as you probably know has been my builder for 25 years. So at this time I can no longer offer my Flip Oakes Wild Thing Trumpets, Cornets, Flugelhorns etc. Though, I do still have a few Flip Oakes Legend Bb Trumpets in stock.
Introducing the new Flip Oakes Fusion series! https://flipoakes.com
As the brass instrument industry has become ever more globalized, we’ve seen a lot of competitive pressure against our traditional, locally-manufactured approach. While I have always been dedicated to producing all Flip Oakes horns locally, to maintain control over the building process, it starting becoming clear that in order to meet the demand for high-quality instruments that can compete in today’s marketing environment, I would need to offer an additional line based on an overseas manufacturing source.
After much research and collaboration, I feel confident that I’ve found an overseas factory with the capability to make instruments that I’m happy to put my signature on.
This new line, Flip Oakes Fusion, offers great quality and superb playability at a more affordable price point. And of course, all Fusion horns undergo the renowned Flip Oakes quality control testing and adjustment prior to delivery.
Flip Oakes Fusion Commander Bb Trumpet – .469” Variable bore, with a similar open flair Wild Thing style bell. This trumpet will produce an open full rich sound that’s not too demanding. It will really open up in the upper register.
Flip Oakes Fusion Bolt Bb Trumpet – .469 variable bore, with a 37 style bell. This trumpet will appeal to the Big Band and Lead players. Bright centered sound, with the appropriate feel and amount of resistance.
Flip Oakes Fusion Champ Bb Flugelhorn – .413 bore. While sounding dark, it has a punchy feel to it as well, perfect for jazz! Includes Flip Oakes large Morse taper Wild Thing Flugelhorn Mouthpiece. _________________ Flip Oakes “Wild Thing Trumpets”
2559 Mottino Dr.
Oceanside, Ca. 92056-3421
760-643-1501
Delivering the distinctive Wild Thing Sound since 1994 |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations, Flip!
Maybe you should have named them Phoenix? _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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myvalves Regular Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2019 Posts: 21
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Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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The market is already flooded with these Chinese horns, like the horribly cheap looking fake gold " JP by Taylor ", John Packer or whatever other euro-caucasian name they can arbitrarily concoct to brand it with in China or Taiwan. Those John Packer JP horns pop up on ebay used, a couple of months after their poor, unsuspecting buyers realizes that the finish is wearing off ! Andy Taylor has admonished them, specifically, that they cannot use the Taylor brand name to market these sub-par Chinese horns, which, I'm sure, you'd be getting your valve sections from.
There is basically one huge conglomerate factory that makes all this junk. They look nice and shiny, but the finish wears off quickly and the valves go to crap.
And like Taylor, you'll find your name and reputation soiled and forever tarnished. Pun intended. |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Flip....you da man. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | Congratulations, Flip! |
+1
Congratulations!
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Liberty Lips Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 983
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:27 am Post subject: |
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myvalves wrote: | The market is already flooded with these Chinese horns, like the horribly cheap looking fake gold " JP by Taylor ", John Packer or whatever other euro-caucasian name they can arbitrarily concoct to brand it with in China or Taiwan. Those John Packer JP horns pop up on ebay used, a couple of months after their poor, unsuspecting buyers realizes that the finish is wearing off ! Andy Taylor has admonished them, specifically, that they cannot use the Taylor brand name to market these sub-par Chinese horns, which, I'm sure, you'd be getting your valve sections from.
There is basically one huge conglomerate factory that makes all this junk. They look nice and shiny, but the finish wears off quickly and the valves go to crap.
And like Taylor, you'll find your name and reputation soiled and forever tarnished. Pun intended. |
Still indulging in psychotropics, I see. I don’t know why you feel the need to troll this forum with your pathetic ignorance.
I don’t know where or from whom Flip is sourcing these instruments, but I will stick with what I do know: Flip has forgotten more than most of us here will ever know about the mechanics of brass instruments, and being an excellent trumpet player himself he has an unique perspective on designing instruments that give the performer every advantage. He would sooner gouge his eyes out than release for sale an instrument that is less than the very highest quality. The only reputation gathering tarnish here is that of trolls like yourself who delight in displaying your stupidity for all to see. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:43 am Post subject: |
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My best wishes to you, Mr. Oakes.
This is indeed where it seems to be going - mainland China.
I see more and more people coming to the shop with mainland Chinese instruments, and I have to turn them away if they need repair, in most instances. You simply don't know what's going to happen when you bend something, or put a torch to a solder joint, or whatever operation it needs.
That being said, there are various levels of quality in Chinese factories, and the day will come when they make a truly good product. The problem is that you can never know where something from there was made, and who is doing better quality work. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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oljackboy Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Posts: 290
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:48 am Post subject: |
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If you have ever spoken with Flip Oakes or purchased anything from him, you would know that none of your accusations could be true. Stand up guy, great player, dedicated to the art. If Flip says these are good instruments, I for one will be shocked if they are anything less. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: |
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There are also Taiwan manufacturers that make decent horns. Think Jupiter, Carol Brass or horns sold by people like Trent Austin that are closely checked for quality and only sold to the consumer after ensuring quality.
Flip had a somewhat similar relationship with Kanstul in that he took completed instruments and applied his magic to bring them up to his standard. There is no reason to believe this new endeavor will be any different.
As to the opinion expressed about his marketing and business prowess, if the person expressing it can show that their own skills running a similar business are superior then perhaps the opinion is worth more than the cost to post it. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I do not think bashing a horn (or a name of a horn) is terribly useful - much less if no one here has played the new horns. So let’s keep it real: Flip Oakes has a reputation as a major player (pun intended) in brass manufacture, while I think those complaining about Asian made horns in this thread do not.
If someone else steps up as a player or manufacturer at the same level FO does, all the better for the trumpet world. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Some people like pretending they are ten feet tall behind a keyboard.
I've had conversations with Flip through email and phone more than once, less than a hundred times, and he's a class act.
His USA trumpets are REALLY good, and I would pay more for them if he charged more, but he doesn't.
On the note about you bashing the name "Wild Thing", if he called them "Pickle Juice", I would still buy one.
The new horns aren't even out for review yet from players so let's hold off on the tomato throwing. I think he's got some street cred to allow for a moment prior to judgement on his character and business. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
Last edited by theslawdawg on Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:27 am Post subject: |
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myvalves wrote: | The market is already flooded with these Chinese horns, like the horribly cheap looking fake gold " JP by Taylor ", John Packer or whatever other euro-caucasian name they can arbitrarily concoct to brand it with in China or Taiwan. Those John Packer JP horns pop up on ebay used, a couple of months after their poor, unsuspecting buyers realizes that the finish is wearing off ! Andy Taylor has admonished them, specifically, that they cannot use the Taylor brand name to market these sub-par Chinese horns, which, I'm sure, you'd be getting your valve sections from.
There is basically one huge conglomerate factory that makes all this junk. They look nice and shiny, but the finish wears off quickly and the valves go to crap.
And like Taylor, you'll find your name and reputation soiled and forever tarnished. Pun intended. |
That’s beyond ridiculous, in addition to being incorrect.
Flip: I’m really glad to see that you have been able to put this together!
To anyone not familiar with Flip Oakes and his line of exceptional instruments: Flip is a class act, a very ethical business person and a very talented designer of trumpets, cornets and flugelhorns, he is also a very accomplished player himself. I’m quite sure that he made certain that these new horns are up to his standards. (I own a Wild Thing).
Congrats Flip!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:17 am Post subject: |
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I have 3 Chinese made horns and have had no troubles with the finish. Though the valves seemed to have an unnecessarily long break in period they now work fine.
All are nearly 10 years old
I’m sure the new Fusion line will do fine _________________ a few different ones |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 907
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Let me start out by saying that I have played several of Flip Oakes' horns along with a few Kanstuls over the years and I have never found one that works for me, so I have no skin in this game. Although many on this forum would consider what I am about to say blasphemous, I am going to say it anyway. From a manufacturing standpoint, Kanstul horns could have issues. Dealing with Kanstul, both during Zig's tenure and after could be trying to say the least and for this I speak with personal experience having dealt with Kanstul over the years in maintaining my vintage Benge trumpets.
Despite all this, I am sorry that the Kanstul Instrument Co. could no longer continue. It had an important place in the brass instrument field. Anytime an American manufacturing company closes its doors, it is a sad day. While I don't play Flip Oakes horns, I have met Flip and agree wholeheartedly with all the positive comments made about him on this forum.
I also try not to purchase goods manufactured overseas whenever possible. That being said, I will speculate that Flip Oakes found that having his horns made overseas was the only way he could continue. As far a I am concerned, as opposed as I am to products being manufactured overseas, and even though I don't play any of Flip Oakes' horns, I would rather have overseas produced Flip Oakes' instruments available than no Flip Oakes' instruments at all. |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1551 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:36 am Post subject: |
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How many on this forum use iPhones or other Apple products? Do you consider them good products? They are made in China. They are designed in the USA. Apple supposedly watches compliance to its standards. And that means they have a lot to watch.
There is no reason that Flip or any other person cannot follow the same process, and get good designs produced to predetermined standards in China (or elsewhere). Incidentally, Flip did not say that his manufacturer was in China. As others have noted overseas could mean a lot of other places. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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cgaiii wrote: | How many on this forum use iPhones or other Apple products? Do you consider them good products? They are made in China. They are designed in the USA. Apple supposedly watches compliance to its standards. And that means they have a lot to watch.
There is no reason that Flip or any other person cannot follow the same process, and get good designs produced to predetermined standards in China (or elsewhere). Incidentally, Flip did not say that his manufacturer was in China. As others have noted overseas could mean a lot of other places. |
Good point(s).....as I type this on my iPhone.
While I understand “buy American” sentiment, I’m more focused on “buy quality.” This reminds me of when, in the 70’s, American auto builders began to lose substantial market share to Japanese manufacturers. At that time, the Japanese autos began to show superiority in terms of build quality and especially the longevity of their products. I think there are many reasons why an American company might have difficulty competing with a foreign one, some of those reasons (like lower wages paid to workers in other countries), might be next to impossible to overcome. But the bottom line for me is the quality of the product, regardless of the origin of manufacture. _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | cgaiii wrote: | How many on this forum use iPhones or other Apple products? Do you consider them good products? They are made in China. They are designed in the USA. Apple supposedly watches compliance to its standards. And that means they have a lot to watch.
There is no reason that Flip or any other person cannot follow the same process, and get good designs produced to predetermined standards in China (or elsewhere). Incidentally, Flip did not say that his manufacturer was in China. As others have noted overseas could mean a lot of other places. |
Good point(s).....as I type this on my iPhone.
While I understand “buy American” sentiment, I’m more focused on “buy quality.” This reminds me of when, in the 70’s, American auto builders began to lose substantial market share to Japanese manufacturers. At that time, the Japanese autos began to show superiority in terms of build quality and especially the longevity of their products. I think there are many reasons why an American company might have difficulty competing with a foreign one, some of those reasons (like lower wages paid to workers in other countries), might be next to impossible to overcome. But the bottom line for me is the quality of the product, regardless of the origin of manufacture. |
We are treading dangerously close to the R&P ban, but I lived through the tide of Japanese car manufacturers taking over the auto market so...
In addition to superior build quality and durability they also offered many features that the big three just ignored. My personal feeling was that the Japanese searched out what the buyers wanted and the big three told the buyers what they wanted. |
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jharris2 Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 168 Location: Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations, Flip! You've worked hard to bring these to market, and can't wait to see the reviews. _________________ John
2014 Flip Oakes Wild Thing flugelhorn (copper bell)
2014 Flip Oakes Celebration trumpet
2005 Flip Oakes Wild Thing trumpet
2002 Flip Oakes Wild Thing short cornet
1976 Getzen Eterna Severinsen trumpet
1951 Olds Ambassador cornet |
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bspickler Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 272 Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations, Flip. I'm still using the WT from a few years back. I'm sure the quality of the new horns will be up to your original horns. Keep up the good work. _________________ Bill |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 907
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Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The iPhone analogy has some validity but the Japan car analogy less so. The Apple iPhone is an American product produced in China. Flip Oakes' horns are American instruments that will evidently now be produced off shore.
The Japanese car industry originated in Japan based on Japanese automobile concepts. For a variety of reasons, fuel economy being one, and Detroit deciding to rest on their laurels and produce gas guzzlers of questionable build quality, Japanese cars enjoyed wide appeal and acceptance in the US. These cars were not American designs merely being built overseas. As a matter of fact, just the opposite has evolved. Japanese designed cars are being built by Japanese auto companies in factories in the United States, by such auto makers as Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and Toyota. |
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