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| Do you think it’s acceptable in a Journal Book Review article for a reviewer to restate the authors’ personal theories, suppositions and opinions as being a matter of factual history? |
| Yes, I think this is an acceptable practice. |
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32% |
[ 26 ] |
| No, I do not think this is an acceptable thing to do. |
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67% |
[ 55 ] |
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| Total Votes : 81 |
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AverageJoe
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 4116
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| John Kreese wrote: | | A good solution is never to read the ITG journal. |
Or just go PRACTICE instead.
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..." |
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trumpetmike
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 11315
Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| AverageJoe wrote: | | John Kreese wrote: | | A good solution is never to read the ITG journal. |
Or just go PRACTICE instead. |
 How dare you suggest something so mindblowingly sensible |
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lh
Claude Gordon Forum Moderator
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 3137
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, really..... that would involve some effort, a certain amount of self-discipline, and maybe even a focused work ethic and a positive attitude.....
What's a lazy, caustic, argumentative cynic to do?
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Eclipse Enigma Bb trumpet 2011
Olds Super Bb trumpet 1958
Eclipse Red Flugelhorn 2011
Selmer Paris model 59 Piccolo 1977
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trumpetart
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 726
Location: Cotati, CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | | Virtually every article or review I have ever read in the ITG Journal of anything seemed to have a positive slant to it. |
Yes, I've noticed that too and I think it's kind of embarassing. Virtually every CD review is a rave, too. They seem to be terrified of offending anyone.
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| steve_fenick wrote: | | The part of this that I find most ironic is that John Mohan would criticize Callet and Civiletti for their suppositions regarding famous trumpet players using TCE, yet he has no problems coming on here and proclaiming that every virtuoso trumpet player uses the KTM articulation. |
Hi Steve,
You would do well to read more carefully what I write in comparison to what Misters Civiletti and Callet write. Perhaps then, you would realize the difference.
| On Fri May 26, 2006 4:52 pm on the Trumpet Herald John Mohan wrote: | | My secret (though it really shouldn’t be a “secret” since it’s been published in various Method Books for more than 100 years) is that I tongue in the way Herbert L. Clarke, Liberati, Claude Gordon, Raphael Mendez, and probably just about every virtuoso brass player tongues. |
(emphasis added)
In that thread, as well as most of the other threads where I discuss KTM, I support what I represent as my opinion with quotes from the books written by the above people or, in the case of Mendez, with conversations that he had with my teacher regarding tongue placement.
Examples:
| In his book “Characteristic Studies” Herbert L. Clarke wrote: | | My tongue is never rigid when playing, and rests at the bottom of my mouth, the end pressed slightly against the lower teeth. I then produce the staccato, by the centre of the tongue striking against the roof of the mouth. |
In his Grand Method book, Liberati describes the proper motion of the tongue as a “to and fro” movement. This describes KTM – in that if you tongue in the non-KTM way with the tip doing the articulating, then the motion of the tip is more up and down, then forward and backward as it is with KTM.
Another reference I have quoted before:
| Jeff Purtle wrote: | | The very tip of the tongue always remains in contact with the top of the bottom teeth and you produce the “T” just slightly back from the tip of the tongue. This is in the front middle of the tongue, hence Claude Gordon coined the term “K Tongue Modified” because like K tonguing it is in the middle of the tongue, but modified to be more forward toward the tip. Here are some people I have spoken with that I know tongue this way: Arturo Sandoval, Doc Severinsen, Frank Kaderabek, Wayne Bergeron, Bob O’Donnel, and Claude Gordon and his students. Claude Gordon learned this from Herbert L. Clarke, who taught it to all his students. Also, Armando Ghitalla tongued this way and taught his students this. |
Now, let’s take a look at the other Camp; we’ll call it “Camp TCE”:
| On the Main Page of his website, Bahb Civiletti wrote: | | Though skeptics may try to refute the tongue-controlled embouchure, it is difficult to refute the power and control which the great cornetist Herbert L. Clarke possessed. Possibly the greatest cornet player in his lifetime, Herbert L. Clarke used his tongue in the same manner that tongue-controlled embouchure requires. |
To back up his rather bold statement (I don’t see the word “probably” there – do you?), Civiletti quotes from a letter Clarke once wrote. In that letter, Clarke describes a “stunt” he used to do on occasion to squeal high notes. Clarke also uses the word “trick” in that letter.
Now which what do you think is more valid description of Clarke’s way of playing – Clarke’s description of how he plays in his own method book, or the description of a “stunt” he said he sometimes performs in an informal letter written in a humorous tone to a colleague?
Camp TCE also proclaims that Jules Levy played in the TCE way. Why? Because Levy wrote, “The proper way to obtain a note, is to imagine you have something on your tongue, say for instance, a hair. You may try time after time to remove it, but only with your tongue.”
Funny, but I don’t see anything in that description where Levy tells the player to take his tongue, stick it through his teeth, and place the tip curled down between the front of the lower teeth and the lower lip. Remarkable, how all that got left out of the description, if that was the way Levy advocated playing as Mister Civiletti states without any doubt it was. Wouldn’t one think that if that’s how Levy tongued, he might have mentioned those rather pertinent parts of the TCE description?
Now here’s where Camp TCE gets really fun!
| On the Main Page of his website, Bahb Civiletti wrote: | | Players one should listen to in order to hear this [TCE] type of playing are Harry James, Randy Brooks, Charlie Shavers, Peter Masseurs, Conrad Gozzo, Gunter Beetz and Horst Fischer. The tongue-controlled embouchure method can be taught to people of all ages and experience. The only requirement in learning this method is an open mind. |
Not one bit of valid evidence has ever been given by Callet or Civiletti to support such wild suppositions (which are presented as historical facts). None of the above players Civiletti refers to ever wrote or said that they played their trumpet with their tongues through their teeth and their tongue tips curled down in the area between the front of their lower teeth and their lower lips.
I think it takes more than an “open mind” to try the TCE method. I think it takes the suspension of disbelief.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
P.S. This is absolutely my last reply in this topic thread. If anyone doesn’t get it at this point, I clearly can’t help them. |
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steve_fenick
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | steve_fenick wrote: | | The part of this that I find most ironic is that John Mohan would criticize Callet and Civiletti for their suppositions regarding famous trumpet players using TCE, yet he has no problems coming on here and proclaiming that every virtuoso trumpet player uses the KTM articulation. |
Hi Steve,
You would do well to read more carefully what I write in comparison to what Misters Civiletti and Callet write. Perhaps then, you would realize the difference.
| On Fri May 26, 2006 4:52 pm on the Trumpet Herald John Mohan wrote: | | My secret (though it really shouldn’t be a “secret” since it’s been published in various Method Books for more than 100 years) is that I tongue in the way Herbert L. Clarke, Liberati, Claude Gordon, Raphael Mendez, and probably just about every virtuoso brass player tongues. |
(emphasis added)
In that thread, as well as most of the other threads where I discuss KTM, I support what I represent as my opinion with quotes from the books written by the above people or, in the case of Mendez, with conversations that he had with my teacher regarding tongue placement.
Examples:
| In his book “Characteristic Studies” Herbert L. Clarke wrote: | | My tongue is never rigid when playing, and rests at the bottom of my mouth, the end pressed slightly against the lower teeth. I then produce the staccato, by the centre of the tongue striking against the roof of the mouth. |
In his Grand Method book, Liberati describes the proper motion of the tongue as a “to and fro” movement. This describes KTM – in that if you tongue in the non-KTM way with the tip doing the articulating, then the motion of the tip is more up and down, then forward and backward as it is with KTM.
Another reference I have quoted before:
| Jeff Purtle wrote: | | The very tip of the tongue always remains in contact with the top of the bottom teeth and you produce the “T” just slightly back from the tip of the tongue. This is in the front middle of the tongue, hence Claude Gordon coined the term “K Tongue Modified” because like K tonguing it is in the middle of the tongue, but modified to be more forward toward the tip. Here are some people I have spoken with that I know tongue this way: Arturo Sandoval, Doc Severinsen, Frank Kaderabek, Wayne Bergeron, Bob O’Donnel, and Claude Gordon and his students. Claude Gordon learned this from Herbert L. Clarke, who taught it to all his students. Also, Armando Ghitalla tongued this way and taught his students this. |
Now, let’s take a look at the other Camp; we’ll call it “Camp TCE”:
| On the Main Page of his website, Bahb Civiletti wrote: | | Though skeptics may try to refute the tongue-controlled embouchure, it is difficult to refute the power and control which the great cornetist Herbert L. Clarke possessed. Possibly the greatest cornet player in his lifetime, Herbert L. Clarke used his tongue in the same manner that tongue-controlled embouchure requires. |
To back up his rather bold statement (I don’t see the word “probably” there – do you?), Civiletti quotes from a letter Clarke once wrote. In that letter, Clarke describes a “stunt” he used to do on occasion to squeal high notes. Clarke also uses the word “trick” in that letter.
Now which what do you think is more valid description of Clarke’s way of playing – Clarke’s description of how he plays in his own method book, or the description of a “stunt” he said he sometimes performs in an informal letter written in a humorous tone to a colleague?
Camp TCE also proclaims that Jules Levy played in the TCE way. Why? Because Levy wrote, “The proper way to obtain a note, is to imagine you have something on your tongue, say for instance, a hair. You may try time after time to remove it, but only with your tongue.”
Funny, but I don’t see anything in that description where Levy tells the player to take his tongue, stick it through his teeth, and place the tip curled down between the front of the lower teeth and the lower lip. Remarkable, how all that got left out of the description, if that was the way Levy advocated playing as Mister Civiletti states without any doubt it was. Wouldn’t one think that if that’s how Levy tongued, he might have mentioned those rather pertinent parts of the TCE description?
Now here’s where Camp TCE gets really fun!
| On the Main Page of his website, Bahb Civiletti wrote: | | Players one should listen to in order to hear this [TCE] type of playing are Harry James, Randy Brooks, Charlie Shavers, Peter Masseurs, Conrad Gozzo, Gunter Beetz and Horst Fischer. The tongue-controlled embouchure method can be taught to people of all ages and experience. The only requirement in learning this method is an open mind. |
Not one bit of valid evidence has ever been given by Callet or Civiletti to support such wild suppositions (which are presented as historical facts). None of the above players Civiletti refers to ever wrote or said that they played their trumpet with their tongues through their teeth and their tongue tips curled down in the area between the front of their lower teeth and their lower lips.
I think it takes more than an “open mind” to try the TCE method. I think it takes the suspension of disbelief.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
P.S. This is absolutely my last reply in this topic thread. If anyone doesn’t get it at this point, I clearly can’t help them. |
John,
I do read your posts carefully. You are guilty of the same thing that you are accusing the TCE camp of doing.
FWIW, I don't teach TCE at all, and have no stake in this either way. I just find it funny that you criticize others for indulging in the same practices as you. |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Steve,
I'm going to break my own resolve and make this one last post - I just can't resist (am I addicted?).
Here goes:
So Steve, you cannot see the difference between me writing that certain players played in a certain way and providing quotes from those players' books supporting, if not proving that what I wrote is true, compared to Civiletti and/or Callet writing that people play or played in a certain way and providing no such evidence? (I don't think an informal letter referring to a "stunt" done occasionally really counts - do you?)
You can't tell the difference between me writing that virtuosos of the past probably played a certain way, compared to Civiletti and Callet, who state categorically that virtuosos of the past did play in the TCE manner, as if they had access to these players' mouths and could see what went on inside of them?
You really can't tell the difference?
Sincerely,
John Mohan |
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dbacon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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"I think it takes more than an “open mind” to try the TCE method. I think it takes the suspension of disbelief."
Just order Dave Hickman's "Trumpet Pedagogy" and forget any of the alphabet methods. Find a real teacher and get to work, play with the best musicians, listen to great players in performance and recordings...no secrets, just talent and dedication to the craft.
One secret may be....if it sounds bad, it is! |
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Winghorn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 2165
Location: Olympia, Washington
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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John M.- You can't win for trying with some people on TH. Of course there is a difference between stating a premise and backing it up with evidence, which is what you did, and making a claim that is totally unsubstantiated, which is what many TCE advocates always seem to want to do. And the sad part is that these advocates are shooting themselves in the foot by destroying their credibility with their sometimes wild claims. I, and I am sure other TH readers, have lost any desire to explore a system that might have some benefit because of these claims. John, I guess you are just going to have to let it go, which is what I am now trying to do with the regard to the "Bachs suck" posters whos apparently know more than anyone else. Good luck.
Regards
Steve Allison |
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steve_fenick
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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John, you haven't always used the "probably" qualifier. However, since you seem to be so insistent that you are right (as usual), and nobody else's way of looking at anything can possibly be right (again, as usual), I'll play this your way. You say that you use quotes from people's books to support your claims, and that Jerry and Bahb don't. If you were to actually read Jerry's book, you would see that Jerry includes text from Jules Levy's method to support his claims as well. Now, having said that, I won't sit here and claim that Jerry's book is exactly a great academic document...he makes a LOT of suppositions for which he frankly does not provide supporting material. However, and this has been my point all along...you do as well. You repeatedly come on this board and argue with anyone who does anything differently than Gordon taught. I've seen you repeatedly make posts telling people that they were tonguing incorrectly because they weren't using KTM. You didn't pose it as an opinion, you stated it as fact. I've seen you argue with performers in major orchestras...there was no room for them to be right. If they didn't agree with Gordon, they were automatically wrong, regardless of their musical station or reputation. I'm not just grasping at straws here...others have seen this as well.
I have said it before, and I'll say it again...I think most everybody here respects your opinion when it comes to Claude and his method. I know I am one of those people. I also know (and appreciate) your passion for Claude's work. I am glad he worked miracles with your playing. That does NOT mean that Claude's method is the only one that works, and it certainly doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong. Believe it or not, there are people out there (some of whom are world-class musicians) who have benefitted from other methods as much as you have from Claude's. Look at it this way, if it rubs you the wrong way when someone says Claude was wrong (and I've seen your reaction enough times to know it does), what makes you think telling everyone else they are wrong is going to make them want to embrace what you have to say? If you don't like it, why should they?
In short John...it usually isn't WHAT you say that people disagree with, it's HOW you say it. |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| dbacon wrote: | "I think it takes more than an “open mind” to try the TCE method. I think it takes the suspension of disbelief."
Just order Dave Hickman's "Trumpet Pedagogy" and forget any of the alphabet methods. Find a real teacher and get to work, play with the best musicians, listen to great players in performance and recordings...no secrets, just talent and dedication to the craft.
One secret may be....if it sounds bad, it is! |
| Winghorn wrote: | John M.- You can't win for trying with some people on TH. Of course there is a difference between stating a premise and backing it up with evidence, which is what you did, and making a claim that is totally unsubstantiated, which is what many TCE advocates always seem to want to do. And the sad part is that these advocates are shooting themselves in the foot by destroying their credibility with their sometimes wild claims. I, and I am sure other TH readers, have lost any desire to explore a system that might have some benefit because of these claims. John, I guess you are just going to have to let it go, which is what I am now trying to do with the regard to the "Bachs suck" posters whos apparently know more than anyone else. Good luck.
Regards
Steve Allison |
Dear Dave and Steve,
Here's a hearty "Well said!" to both of you!
Sincerely,
John Mohan |
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Moderators
TH Moderator Group
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 3906
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread appears to have little to do with the fundamentals of playing trumpet, and has turned into somewhat of a debate upon the merits of TCE. As a result, it has been shifted here for now. Please play nice or it will be removed. - Moderators |
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steve_fenick
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I'll agree with you there John...a hearty "well said" to Dave Bacon. I am anxiously awaiting my copy of Dave Hickman's new book even as we speak!
As for my dispute with John...John, I do have quite a bit of respect for you and for Claude and his method as well. I'm certainly no TCE advocate, although I do understand the logic behind the method. For the record, I do agree with the point of your original post, and I do agree that Jerry does do the very thing that you accuse him of doing. I just think there is room for more than one way of doing things, and sometimes we all forget that in our passion for whatever method makes us successful. |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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As a hearty believer in Callet's method, I voted with Mr. Mohan on this. Jerome does have a way of just rubbing people wrong, and he's good at it! Overstating certain claims is only part of it - and referencing certain players with no way to verify one way or the other is only part of that.
There are many diplomatic revisions even I could make to things he's published, and I'm not a tactful guy. Example: certain players (most notably Louis Armstron and Jules Levy) are known to have incorporated into their playing the basic elements that make TCE work. Louis didn't achieve consistency with this in his playing, he knew it and you can hear it. He played better when he applied TCE techniques better, even though he may have never understood what he did that made the difference.
Other players also sound as if they used some of the technique, and still others do appear to as you watch them play. Many of the key points are raised throughout the history of brass instruction, in various ways.
Anybody feel better now? The whole point of Callet stating anything along these lines is that he didn't come up with it. He's trying, in his own way, to credit it's development to someone else. He's very blunt about the fact that he was a total failure at the instrument, and many top instructors told him to go play tuba! He sought out some way to play himself, and also learned from the great trumpet makers of our day, applying everything he could to making it easier to play. He displays the fact that his techniques are possible, while making no claims of posessing any musical talent. His persistence is staggering!!
Ray
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"And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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1qw
Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Why anyone would concewn themselves with this subject is beyond me. ITG is not a professional juried journal. However it is probably recognized as being equal to such by some enterprising assistant professors looking for tenure from obtuse deans.
I'll agree with John Kreese aka Thelma:
Go practice: leave ITG to those who can manipulate it to their own good and kids. |
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Mikeytrpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 5028
Location: Richfield, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| AMEN! |
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