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Yamaha Schilke clones...


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Lippy1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:35 am    Post subject: Yamaha Schilke clones... Reply with quote

It's my understanding that during the years that Yamaha and Schilke were working closely together that Yamaha's professional horns were pretty much the same as Schilke's B models. If this is correct, does anyone have a cross-reference list to understand the Yamaha equivalent of the Schilke model?
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that's true (I think not) but a wealth of information can be found at Jim Donaldson's Schilke Loyalist site: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/

HTH - Don
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Lippy1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reference Don. Here is a quote from the site:

Quote:
Nearly all of the early Yamaha trumpets had clear Schilke design influence and, though that relationship has been over for almost twenty years, the Yamaha professional lightweight trumpets still bear very clear relationship with their Schilke forebears. For example, The Yamaha YTR 6310Z began its life as a copy of the Schilke B6, a medium step-bore design. Though the Yamaha has been through several models (the YTR 732, YTR 636, 736, 6310, 6310B and the 6310Z) it remains visually identical to the Schilke with the exception, of course, of Schilke's trademark hexagonal valve caps, buttons, and braces. Yamaha mouthpieces share the Schilke labeling system. The Yamaha trumpet line also included copies of the B5 and X3 for almost 30 years.


So it appears that there may be some models that have similarities, others that were copies. Anybody know the Yamaha models that are B5 and X3 copies?
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops -- I misread, sorry. I thought you were thinking Schilke cloned Yamaha, not the other way around...

Chances are somebody here knows the answer, but you might want to send an email to Jim using the link on the site. He's usually good about getting back, but if you have not heard after three days try again (his email system was set up to delete older messages since he gets quite a few!) That way, you get the answer straight from the source, or close enough! He sometimes looks at TH, but generally just the marketplace (kast time I spoke with him, anyway).

HTH - Don
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cjl
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After buying a used Yamaha 636 a couple of years ago, I tried to make my own comparison chart for the old, 3-digit models. Here it is - these are my guesses, using the info from Yamaha's web site on their older models and the Schilke Loyalist's site on Schilke models. This comparison is based on bore and bell size; Yamaha uses different materials and finishes than Schilke.

I'm sure everyone will fix anything I have wrong. -- Joe

Additional note on reading the below list: I consider the 632 & 636 to be B6 clones, the 634 & 637 to be B5 clones, etc.

Yamaha 3-Digit Bb Models

Lacquer
Bore = M Schilke equivalent: B6
Model: YTR-632 Years: 1969-1976 Key: Bb Bore: .445" Bell Size: 5" Material: Red Brass Finish: Lacquer Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6310Z

Model: YTR-636 Years: 1976-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .445" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Lacquer Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6310Z

Bore = ML Schilke equivalent: B5
Model: YTR-634 Years: 1969-1978 Key: Bb Bore: .460" Bell Size: 5" Material: Red Brass Finish: Lacquer Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6335

Model: YTR-637 Years: 1976-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .460" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Lacquer Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6335

Bore = L Schilke equivalent: B3
Model: YTR-639 Years: 1976-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .463" Bell Size: 4-7/8" Material: Gold Brass Finish: Lacquer Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6345

Silver
Bore = M Schilke equivalent: B6
Model: YTR-732 Years: 1969-1978 Key: Bb Bore: .445" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Silver Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6310ZS

Model: YTR-736 Years: 1976-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .445" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Silver Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6310ZS

Bore = ML Schilke equivalent: B5
Model: YTR-734 Years: 1969-1978 Key: Bb Bore: .460" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Silver Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6335S

Model: YTR-737 Years: 1976-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .460" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Silver Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6335S

Bore = L Schilke equivalent: X3
Model: YTR-738 Years: 1974-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .463" Bell Size: 5" Material: Yellow Brass Finish: Silver Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6345GS

Bore = L Schilke equivalent: B3
Model: YTR-739T Years: 1976-1984 Key: Bb Bore: .463" Bell Size: 4-7/8" Material: Gold Brass Finish: Silver Weight: Light Current Model: YTR-6345GS
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dmh737
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own a YTR-737 and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between this horn and a B-5. I know I can't. Check out the serial #. If there is an "A" after the number, then it was made here in the states. I was also informed by a former Schilke employee from that era that some of these horns were put together by Schilke employees at the Schilke factory. Granted that these were Yamaha parts after Renold Shilke's design, they were still put together and adjusted by the master craftsmen at the Schilke factory. This fact has long been denied, but in his words, " Hell, man you're playin' a Schilke." IMHO they are some of the highest quality horns on the used market today.
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pfrank
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The later 6340ST was a B3 copy. light weight 463 bore, reverse leadpipe, etc., don't know if the 1st valve trigger is a Schilke feature.
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maeissin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmh737 wrote:
I own a YTR-737 and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between this horn and a B-5. I know I can't. Check out the serial #. If there is an "A" after the number, then it was made here in the states. I was also informed by a former Schilke employee from that era that some of these horns were put together by Schilke employees at the Schilke factory. Granted that these were Yamaha parts after Renold Shilke's design, they were still put together and adjusted by the master craftsmen at the Schilke factory. This fact has long been denied, but in his words, " Hell, man you're playin' a Schilke." IMHO they are some of the highest quality horns on the used market today.


I have a 734 -- my second. When I bought the first one, in 1972, the cat at the music store basically said, "They're shilke horns, with the Yamaha stamp" It was a great horn then, and it's a great horn, now.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: Was the 739T the only model ever made with the little sheet metal trigger?

I had a horn with a trigger but I'm not sure of the model. It was a fantastic trumpet. It had a nice open and smooth blow and compared to the King cornet I came from, it was almost effortless to play. I made the biggest jump in my ability while I had that trumpet and maybe even because of that trumpet.

I wish I still had it.
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ldwoods
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently own a 1970s B3 and a Yamaha YTR739T. I thought the 739T was a clone of the X3, but after playing them both, and trying to remember how the X3 I had before played, I think your chart is correct. The 739T plays almost identical to the B3. The 739T probably has the same design bell as the B3, not the X3. By memory, the X3 was even more free blowing with a less focused, or more dispersed sound.

Both are for sale by the way. If I had to pick one or the other to keep and never get another trumpet, I would probably flip a coin to decide. They are both really great playing horns.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that I thought I would add in here about that Yamaha 739T is that it wasn't the kind of horn you would use in a chamber group or to play classical solos. This horn had a wide open bright sound and was LOUD. I never had endurance issues with that horn, but then again, that's just my memory of pep bands when I was a 15 year old high school freshman.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not certain about the instruments today but I do know from many conversations I had with Ren back in the 70s that he was actually hired by Yamaha to come to Japan and help update their brass works to make it competitive with the US and European instruments of the day. (At the time I suppose Paris had a lock on the woodwind market, the US on most brass.)

Yamaha wind instruments were anything but highly regarded here at the time and they made a commitment to enter the US market as a serious competitor with the help of Schilke and some other well-known instrument designers. According to him, he helped with the entire design of their trumpets and for a short time even marketed M-Model horns that were made in Japan. One can still find these occasionally, either an M1 or M2. They do not have the more streamlined appearance of the B-series horns, much "taller"- more distance between the radii of the tuning and bell bow. I had a couple of students with these years ago, the valves were not on a par with those of the normal Schilke trumpets.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the 'M' modelds:
Craig Swartz wrote:
I had a couple of students with these years ago, the valves were not on a par with those of the normal Schilke trumpets.

Unless I'm mistaken, ALL of the M model Schilkes suffered from the Yamalloy curse - the alloy developed by Yamaha for use in the valves that wound up being extremely problematic.

I don't know if the valves on my 739T were Yamalloy or not, (that horn was circa 1981) but I never had problems with them either. Then again, I've never really had problems with the valves on any trumpet with the exception of a Strad that I borrowed for a short while and that I attribute to the fact that it was broken in for someone else and I pushed the valves in a different direction.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only Yamaha trumpet valves I can really speak of besides a Malone converted C HWII I owned for a short while are the student line (beginner) ones of approximately 15 years ago that came in a burgundy-colored, compact case. The valves were obviously nickle plated and the plating began flaking off after a short while on nearly all of the horns students had in the program. It was maddening and there really was no fix except new pistons. It must've been a bad run or someone did not know how to properly prep the pistons before the plating process. I have a fair arsenal of Schilke horns in various keys and all have valves that rarely fail and are very low-maintenance.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only ever owned one Schilke, but I have to say that it has the best valves of any horn I have ever owned, without a doubt. I have had Bach valves that were good, but not like these.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is very little chance that I'll ever buy another Bach, or anything else for that matter. I'm a Schilke man from here on out.
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BigMark65
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Yamaha Schilke Reply with quote

I have owned (at different times) the Ytr-639; Ytr-6320; ytr-738. B3, X3, B1, B5, and S32. The yamaha clones are all different (and inferrior) to their Schilke counterparts, but still the most undervalued horns on the used market. (IMHO)

Ytr-6320 --> B5
ytr- 639/739 - B3 (but less open than the B3, also the Yamy has a copper bell)
Ytr - 738 --> X3 (open, flexible horn. loads of volume & fun)

I wish I had them all back.

Mark
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ldwoods
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Schilke Reply with quote

BigMark65 wrote:
I have owned (at different times) the Ytr-639; Ytr-6320; ytr-738. B3, X3, B1, B5, and S32. The yamaha clones are all different (and inferrior) to their Schilke counterparts, but still the most undervalued horns on the used market. (IMHO)

Ytr-6320 --> B5
ytr- 639/739 - B3 (but less open than the B3, also the Yamy has a copper bell)
Ytr - 738 --> X3 (open, flexible horn. loads of volume & fun)

I wish I had them all back.

Mark


Inferior?, or not quite as comfortable for YOU? Not to nitpick, but saying something is inferior in comparison to something else, and then stating you wish you had them all back seems kind of unusual.
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BigMark65
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Yamaha Schilke Reply with quote

Wow, I guess you told me. Now I remember why I quit posting.

Mark Roberts
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Schilke Reply with quote

ldwoods wrote:
BigMark65 wrote:
I have owned (at different times) the Ytr-639; Ytr-6320; ytr-738. B3, X3, B1, B5, and S32. The yamaha clones are all different (and inferrior) to their Schilke counterparts, but still the most undervalued horns on the used market. (IMHO)

Ytr-6320 --> B5
ytr- 639/739 - B3 (but less open than the B3, also the Yamy has a copper bell)
Ytr - 738 --> X3 (open, flexible horn. loads of volume & fun)

I wish I had them all back.

Mark


Inferior?, or not quite as comfortable for YOU? Not to nitpick, but saying something is inferior in comparison to something else, and then stating you wish you had them all back seems kind of unusual.

No, he had it right - the Yamaha clones are inferior to their Schilke counterparts. It's the difference between mass produced and hand made. My Schilke is bar none the best built trumpet I have ever owned. The fit and finish are absolutely flawless and I have never seen any Yamaha that even comes close in terms of fit and finish. I believe that it was in this area (and not playability - which is different, not inferior) that he was speaking.

Oh, and chill bro. We're all friends here the last I checked.
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ldwoods
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Schilke Reply with quote

BigMark65 wrote:
Wow, I guess you told me. :oops: Now I remember why I quit posting.

Mark Roberts


Mark,
Please accept my aplogies. I did not mean to "tell you" anything. I thought the board was for discussion. I was just seeking some clarification. I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else.
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