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Bob Stevenson
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 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: Help with tongue defect please... |
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One of my current crop of beginners has a problem which I have never encountered before and which I do not have the knowledge to help her with. Essentially, the tip of her tongue is missing,...ie the end of her tongue is 'notched' so that it is not possible for her to form a pointed tongue tip. not surprisingly her rapid tonguing is laboured and is now noticeably slower than the other beginners.
In teaching my beginners I have evolved my own teaching method which works well in getting young players into band as quickly as I can,...from the start I put in place articulation and breathing drills which become habits. Needless to say, this little girl has always had a difficult time with the tonguing excercises and has now arrived at the practice sheet with 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang'. She is a fantastic little trooper with golden hair and a built in smile but last night for the first time I saw that smile starting to slip! In all other respects she is a model pupil and excellent little bandsman,..her cornet tone is lovely but now I need some answers if I am to free the musician inside her who is fighting to get out!
I should add that the defect in her tongue gave her a serious speach impediment which was considered inoperable but which has got much better in the last year,..she is nine years old. |
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Can she anchor-tounge, keeping the tip low and "fixed" (sort-of) against the bottom teeth/gumline while tonguing using the portion just behind the tip instead? It will give her softer attacks, but more more control, and may keep her smile in place! - Don
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Last edited by Don Herman rev2 on Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Billy B
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Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Your last sentence gives us hope. If she can overcome the speech problem she may be able to do the same with trumpet. I would encourage her to sing her songs. Experiment with different syllables, DAH,
TAH, TU, DU untill you find the one that works best for her. Then have her use that syllable when playing. At this age I wouldn't press the issue too much. You can teach tonguing without saying the word tongue.
I would also have a talk with her speech therapist about this. Last resort is of course switching instruments.
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Dave H
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006
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Location: Seaside, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Bob,
I love how you talk of your student. You must be a very fine teacher. |
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JokinJoe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave H wrote: | Bob,
I love how you talk of your student. You must be a very fine teacher. |
Agreed.
I wish my teacher were the same. |
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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"Anchor" or "dorsal" tonguing is the way to go, just as Don described. For many of us it's superior to "traditional" tip tonguing.
Dave
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TCLeadTpt09
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I was just messing around with my tongue, and thought . .
What if she used a "Ku" sound to tongue?
It would be a little slower, yes, but in time she could get better and better and make it work.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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"Anchor" tonguing is a bad name for it, but what they are talking about is exactly how this girl (and really everybody else) should tongue.
Its the way Herbert Clarke, Claude Gordon, Raphael Mendez, and probably just about every great player really tongued or tongues.
Perhaps the best explanation of this way of tonguing is in Herbert L. Clarke’s “Characteristic Studies for the Cornet”, published in 1915:
| Herbert L. Clarke wrote: | My tongue is never rigid when playing, and rests at the bottom of my mouth, the end pressed slightly against the lower teeth. I then produce the staccato, by the centre of the tongue striking against the roof of the mouth. This I have practiced so as to acquire rapid single tongueing without fatigue, nore causing a clumsy tone, and when under full control, Double and Triple Tongueing become a simple matter by diligent practice, keeping the mind upon each articulation…
…when the muscles of the lips are contracted for high tones, one would necessarily pronounce “Te,” and when relaxed for low tones, “Tu”; consequently it would be unnatural, and almost impossible to use the same syllable for tones in all registers on the cornet… |
Claude Gordon coined the term “K-Tongue Modified” or “KTM” to describe this (correct) method of tonguing. The reason is because in the normal (wrong) method of tonguing, the player tongues with his or her tongue tip, where as in K-Tonguing, it is the rear portion of the tongue that performs the articulation. With KTM, it is the front-middle portion of the tongue that performs the articulation, placing it somewhere between T-Tonguing and K-Tonguing, hence the term “K-Tongue Modified.”
When the player tongues using the KTM method, the tongue has to move only a very short distance between the articulation and where it must be during the sustaining of the tone. This makes for far greater range, both when single and when multiple tonguing styles are being employed. It also makes for far greater accuracy (less missed notes). When using the KTM way of tonguing, the tongue is also allowed to be all the way forward in the mouth, and this is very important.
When tonguing in the typical (wrong) way using the tip of the tongue, the tongue is forced back farther in the mouth which can cause a “choking” or “throat constriction” feeling as the player tries to hit high notes. And when the note is articulated with the tongue tip up high behind the top teeth, the tongue must travel a long way down to the “ahh” position for lower notes or the “eee” (like when saying “sea”) position for higher notes. In essence, for a brief moment, the tip of the tongue is literally in the way of the airstream, and this is what causes rough sounding attacks, especially in the upper register.
When KTM tonguing ability is developed, incredible gains in accuracy occur throughout the range of the instrument. KTM is the reason I can pick up a horn cold and nail an F or even a G above High C as my first note of the day – or of the week. This makes for a great impression when I start a Brass MasterClass or give a new student his or her first lesson! There's nothing like taking a cold trumpet out of the case, inserting the mouthpiece and nailing a full power F above High C to make it clear I can "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk"...
For more information about KTM, read the wealth of information available at the following Websites:
http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/k_tongue_modified.htm
http://www.purtle.com/jeff_articles_how.html
http://www.purtle.com/jeff_articles_what.html
http://www.purtle.com/jeff_articles_faq.html
http://www.trumpetguild.org//itgyouth/masterclass/Purtle.htm
http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/john_mohan.htm
Best wishes to you and your student,
John Mohan
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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"Anchor" or "dorsal" tonguing is the generally accepted description of what I'm describing. It's very descriptive of what goes on in my mouth. Look to pages 135 and 136 of Hickman's Pedagogy book for a clear picture and description. John is describing something slightly different. (It's also valid, but not what many of us think of as anchor or dorsal tonguing).
With anchor tonguing the tongue strikes the bottom of the front teeth for most tonguing (always staying lightly anchored against the back of the lower teeth). It can strike the roof of the mouth, but I reserve that for multi-tonguing, rocking the tongue between the teeth and roof of the mouth. Using the teeth only with a young player will avoid going to a "guh" sound which could lead to throat constriction. ("Guh" is a valid articulation, learned by those of us following Bahb Civiletti's TCE method, but I'd keep a young player away from it until they're fluid on the teeth).
Dave
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laura C tpt
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Mohan, please don't dismiss tip-tonguing out of hand. It's offensive to state that an effective and widely-used technique is wrong because you say so. I recognize that many great players use anchor tonguing; just as many use tip-tonguing. I refer you to the Hickman book as well, where he says that many players use a combination of both. I myself can do both, but tip-tonguing is more effective for me.
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Boston University
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Peter Bond
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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The student could also use a K syllable for articulation. There are no immutable rules, especially in light of her unique physiology. I have even known an accomplished tubust who articulated using his glottis ("uh-uh-uh"). No teacher ever picked up on it, and he saw no need to change given his success and comfort with it.
Peter Bond |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| laura C tpt wrote: | | Mr. Mohan, please don't dismiss tip-tonguing out of hand. It's offensive to state that an effective and widely-used technique is wrong because you say so. I recognize that many great players use anchor tonguing; just as many use tip-tonguing. I refer you to the Hickman book as well, where he says that many players use a combination of both. I myself can do both, but tip-tonguing is more effective for me. |
Tonguing with the tip of the tongue isn't wrong because I say it is. In fact it is not really wrong at all. It just doesn't work as well as KTM for brass playing.
Here are a few reasons why:
1) If one tongues with the tip of the tongue, the tongue has to move farther with each articulation. With the KTM method, the tongue hardly has to move at all with each articulation. Less required movement equates to a faster potential tonguing speed. Can you single tongue 16th notes at 144 bpm? I can. So could Claude Gordon. Herbert Clarke could do it at 160 bpm.
2) The increased movement the tongue has to make for each articulation also causes a loss of potential accuracy. When you use KTM, the tongue hardly has to move as you tongue the note, so when it moves to where it needs to be for any particular note, it is more likely to arrive in the correct spot, meaning the player is more likely to play the correct note. This is particularly true of the higher notes. Can you pick up a trumpet for the first time in a week, and without any kind of warm up know that if you want to play for your first note a full power F# above High C, that is what you'll play? I can. I can also multiple tongue (double or triple) up to G above High C using the KTM method. I can do this not because I am some fantastic, gifted player, but because I learned the KTM method of tonguing. It makes it easy (with practice and development).
One of the things my teacher Claude Gordon was most famous for was his incredible accuracy when doing studio work. He kept track of his "misses" and in a period of a year, playing 7 to 8 hours a day at the CBS studios all week every week and often sight-reading the live radio and TV shows, he missed less notes than one can count on two hands. He always credited KTM (and practice) with this ability of his.
3) Tonguing with the tip causes the tongue to rest farther back in the mouth. This can lead to incorrectly arching the tongue toward the back of the mouth, which can cause the feeling of "throat constriction" or a "closing of the throat" that we all constantly see posts about on the Trumpet Herald. Using KTM keeps the tongue forward in the mouth where it should be (similar to the positions it is in when saying "saw" in the case of lower notes or "sea" in the case of higher notes).
Of course, there are those that would disagree and they are welcome to. I can only relate what I have experienced, what I have seen Claude's other students and my own students experience, and the experiences of many other successful pro players who use KTM.
Best wishes in school!
Sincerely,
John Mohan |
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Peter Bond
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Location: Metropolitan Opera
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| laura C tpt wrote: | | Mr. Mohan, please don't dismiss tip-tonguing out of hand. It's offensive to state that an effective and widely-used technique is wrong because you say so. I recognize that many great players use anchor tonguing; just as many use tip-tonguing. I refer you to the Hickman book as well, where he says that many players use a combination of both. I myself can do both, but tip-tonguing is more effective for me. |
Although I'm quite certain I sound nothing like him, I too articulate the way John Mohan describes, and use it very effectively on soft, delicate, and twisty passage work on opera, symphony, and chamber music.
My intention in posting is not to gang up on you, Laura, but show readers that this technique is used by "legit" players, and is not limited to reducing rock walls to rubble or exterminating violists and saxophonists.
Peter Bond
PS I also use the "tip" technique occasionally to make a lick "happen."
Last edited by Peter Bond on Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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_TrumpeT_
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| IMHO different styles are not achieved by CONSCIOUSLY thinking where your tongue goes. You don't think, "ooh I better put more sizzle for this lick so I'll arch my tongue up more than usual" Instead you should listen to the best players in a particular style and emulate their sound. Mr Mohan, I would have to respectfully disagree with you on several accounts. Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever? Are you saying that there were no virtuosos - technic wise - who did not use KTM like tonguing? |
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laura C tpt
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I don't think you're ganging up on me, I was just a little put off by Mr. Mohan's choice of words here. He made it seem like anyone who tip-tongued could never be as good as Mendez/Clarke/etc., and I don't think that's true. We should probably steer this back to helping the original poster...
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Trumpet Performance/Musicology
Boston University
College of Fine Arts 2010 |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| _TrumpeT_ wrote: | | Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever? |
No, I do not know that.
Sincerely,
John Mohan |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| laura C tpt wrote: | | Oh, I don't think you're ganging up on me, I was just a little put off by Mr. Mohan's choice of words here. He made it seem like anyone who tip-tongued could never be as good as Mendez/Clarke/etc., and I don't think that's true. We should probably steer this back to helping the original poster... |
You're right Laura - one should never say never. I just think that KTM significantly improves one's chance of success for the reasons I outlined in yesterday's reply.
I've played all over the world (okay, that is an exaggeration - I've worked throughout the US, Canada and most of Western Europe). Whenever I worked with great players, I would ask them how they tongued. I found that when they actually thought about it for a moment, most all of them tongued in the KTM way. I think a lot, if not nearly all the great players tongue in this way, whether they realize it or not.
Perhaps in a month or two, if he decides to help his student learn to use the KTM tonguing method, the teacher who started this thread might write back and tell us the results .
Sincerely,
John Mohan |
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dbacon
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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"Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever?"
I don't believe that's true. |
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Hipster
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| dbacon wrote: | "Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever?"
I don't believe that's true. |
On the album _The Legacy_ there is a recording of Mendez saying he had one of the slowest single tounges ever. This, starting at an early age, led him to develop a really really crisp and clear double tounge.
Question for Mr. Mohan, on the 16th notes at 144bpm did you mean that each 1/16th note was a beat or each 1/4note was at 144? |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Help with tongue defect please... |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | One of my current crop of beginners has a problem which I have never encountered before and which I do not have the knowledge to help her with. Essentially, the tip of her tongue is missing,...ie the end of her tongue is 'notched' so that it is not possible for her to form a pointed tongue tip. not surprisingly her rapid tonguing is laboured and is now noticeably slower than the other beginners.
In teaching my beginners I have evolved my own teaching method which works well in getting young players into band as quickly as I can,...from the start I put in place articulation and breathing drills which become habits. Needless to say, this little girl has always had a difficult time with the tonguing excercises and has now arrived at the practice sheet with 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang'. She is a fantastic little trooper with golden hair and a built in smile but last night for the first time I saw that smile starting to slip! In all other respects she is a model pupil and excellent little bandsman,..her cornet tone is lovely but now I need some answers if I am to free the musician inside her who is fighting to get out!
I should add that the defect in her tongue gave her a serious speach impediment which was considered inoperable but which has got much better in the last year,..she is nine years old. |
So Bob, how's it going?
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