Trombone

[DSR]

Hey,

Although this is a trumpet website, it is the only place I can consult individuals regarding Reinhardt, so I'm going to ask a question regarding playing the trombone.

Basically it is this: I love the trombone...not quite as good as the trumpet, but still a great instrument. I want to start playing it in addition to my trumpet. The other night this girl brought her trombone to rez and asked if I wanted to play. So I started playing and man I could get a nice sound! I also had a lot more endurance and range than on trumpet. This is not the only time I have played. My brother is also a trombone player, so when I'm at home I play his.

So my question is: (and Rich you might know a lot about this from experience) Can I double instruments? Will this harm my playing in any way? Just FYI, I'm a IVA on trombone, and a IV on trumpet. I can tell I'm a IVA on bone because I have the most range, flexibility, and best tonal timbre with a really low mouthpiece placement, and the horn angle tilts down slightly. My chin is not even close to getting in the road.

Would valve bone be better than slide?

What are your thoughts?

[bgibson]

See posts under Did Doc ever sayanything...................
If you have the same embouchure, same pivot and place over the trpt setting you are OK.
WEG

[bgibson]

Rich will nail me for this:
Slide trombone is better than valve.
Doc had some slide position sheets for doublers.
Also basic position rules for all the keys.
WEG

[Wilktone]

DSR, I have to take a couple of issues with your questions.

[bgibson]

Dave and everyone,
In one of my lessons with Doc May 1977:
"I see no problem with you doubling on Bass Trombone and/or Tuba as long as you place the larger mouthpieces over your trombone embouchure and use the same pivot."
So if you are type switching between IV and IVA you are going to have problems.
Scott Holbert reminded me of an interesting point that is on all of our "Orientation Sheets"
I have typed you a_____________ for now.
So, it is possible that you may actually be a IVA or IV depending on your stage of development.
I went between IIIA and IIIB for approx. 3 years before I finally settled in as a IIIB.
There are some advantages in playing trombone.
You can use the "Glissando High Register Routine" on slide trombone.
Dave Sheetz and Rich Willey should be able to provide better information on doubling.
Hope this helps,
WEG

[DSR]

OK....the lastest developements:

I played trombone last night. Horizontally, my mouthpiece placement is the same....same three legs. Vertically, I'm not sure...it looks the same. To tell you the truth, I'm not entirely sure what type I am on trumpet or trombone. My angle is quite flat on trumpet, but it seems the more I play and practice it wants to come down a bit. I may just me imagining this.

Last night I looked at my trombone angle from the side, in the mirror, and it looked to be pretty much the same as my trumpet angle. (relatively flat) I don't really have anyone to look at me from the side, and it's hard to look at myself from the side in front of a mirror. Is it possible that I'm a still trying to settle into IV or IVA? (as you were with IIIA and IIIB)

The one thing I can tell you for sure is that I am an upstream player on both intruments. Just what kind of upstream player I don't know. Are type classifications hereditary? My father is a IVA on trumpet. Doc said he is almost a type IV, but that his angle goes down a tiny bit because of a collapsed bottom tooth.

I'm just rambling. A Pivot System teacher would be nice.

Before I go, I need to mention something about the MP sliding (while my top lip is wetted). I've played the gold mouthpiece, the plastic mouthpiece, and the silver mouthpiece, and they all seem to slip n' slide on the top lip. All three of them give me big red rings. Interestingly, I get the same big red ring playing on a silver MP on trombone, and the rim slides just as much on the top lip as it does on trumpet. Currently I need to play on a dry top lip (on any mouthpiece type of mouthpiece), or else I can't play down to a low C without the mouthpiece sliding up on my lips. This is even after I've cleaned the pore oil off of my face.

Thank you all for your words of wisdom.

[bgibson]

[hairy james]

Brendan,

Did you try the steel wool trick?

Ok, so you think you are going back and fourth between a IVA and a IV on trombone right?
Well the only difference between the two types is the jaw position, thats it. I personally wouldn't worry about it at all so long as you don't "cross rings" placement wise.

Now about your slipping problem.... You may or may not need to play with a dry upper lip, but let me ask you the following questions.

1- Do your upper teeth have an inward slant ( in towards the inside of your mouth ? )

2- Are you sure that you are using enough mouthpiece pressure when you descend so that your mouthpiece never leaves it's "playing groove" ?

3- Are you decreasing your volume when you descend and making sure that you never play the middle and low registers "wide open" aperture wise ?

4- Are you using more mouthpiece pressure for your inhalations ( you most definitely should be ! )

Any one or all of the above could be part of your problem. Check all these things out first and get back to us. And always remember that decreasing mouthpiece pressure too much to play the middle and lower registers, or on inhalations is a dangerous thing.

Happy Holidays and Good Chops,

Chris


P.S- You want trumpet utopia ? learn how to play your low 'C' ( with a good sound of course ) with the same mouthpiece pressure that you use on a high 'C'. This is not an easy thing to do , as a matter of fact I'm still working on it myself. But I can assure you it's well worth trying. C.L.B



[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-12-12 22:07 ]

[DSR]

Bill,

I'll admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to mouthpieces. I just picked this one up from a pile in a box in my dad's office. Anyway, it sais "Yamaha Japan 48". Probably a piece of crap, right??

Oh ya...I live in Canada in the province of Saskatchewan. Where do you reside? A lesson would be great!

Chris,

I'm in the middle of some crazy engineering finals at the moment so I haven't been able to practice. I'll answer as much of the questions as I can at the moment and then elaborate on them later.

1. My teeth are not slanted towards the inside of my mouth. Most definately not.
2. I'm not sure about the MP pressure down low. I'll have to check that out next time I play.
3. I'm not always decreasing my volume when I descend. I am currently in process of eradicating the jaw drop and wide-openness.
4. I'm not using more mouthpiece pressure for inhalations and I know I should be! Two more finals and then I'm home free to hit the practice room hard every day.
5. Steel wool - haven't done yet but I will soon...promise.

From what I just said it sounds like I've been slacking off practice-wise. I wish I could practice, but NOT failing my classes right now is a priority. My guilt is increasing quickly. I have been doing pencil trick, jaw retention, free buzzing, and embouchure retention. They really do cure flabby lower lips!

I'd love to keep typing but I have to get back to my statics vector problems.

Thanks.

[bgibson]

DSR;
I am teaching at Valley City State University approx. one hour west of Fargo, ND
The trombone mouthpiece you are using is not my first or second choice, let's put it that way.
WEG

[BeboppinFool]

[bgibson]

Rich and everyone;
Sorry for getting too carried away on this.
From what Doc told me,
If you place over your trumpet embouchure with the trombone mouthpiece and use the same pivot for trombone you are OK. There is nothing wrong with doubling or tripling, unless you are sensitive to rims.
He never said anything to me about upstream on one instrument and downstream on another.
But, we are talking about Pivot Classification two. Are we not??????
This would be a good question for Dave Sheetz and Doug Elliott.
Especially Dave who does double on trombone.
I would like to see what you are doing on both instruments.
Rich, I have seen you on trpt many times and for many years.
(even before Doc)
I only remember seeing you once on Bass Trumpet and I don't remember what type you were. (December 1992, Philadelphia, PA jam session at a club with a B3 player and drums)
WEG

[BeboppinFool]

[bgibson]

Rich;
Yes, it was December 1992, I had just finished my first season on the road with Ringling. I was staying at my Aunt and Uncles house in Woodbury Heights, NJ. (where I always stayed when I saw Doc.)
You were in Philadelphia, because I went to your apt.
We played a blues, a Dixieland tune (Indiana or I Found A New Baby) and maybe A Train. You played your ________ off. You sounded great!
Ok, now nail me for really getting off the topic.
If you are using the same pivot and placing over your trpt embouchure then you can "get away with it". But I do not know for how long.
Are you sure you are switching between IV and IIIB????????
A "true" IIIB would not be able to protrude the jaw far enough to become an upstream. At least this was my understanding from Doc.
This is also the reason I am a IIIB and not a IIIA. Even though I have a higher placement than most IIIB's. (I have fooled many people as to what type I am) Now here is where anyone can get me from the reunion tape that I made. (IIIB or IIIA??????????)
Doc said East and West placement is not a problem, North and South is.
So if it is the same pivot and the same embouchure it must be correct ?
The times that doubling would be a problem would be when you are fatigued. So I would not suggest playing a big band or circus gig on trombone and then playing a brass quintet or solo recital on trpt the next day. However scream tpt or hard tpt playing on one day might benefit from delicate trombone playing the next day.
WEG

[Mr.Hollywood]

" A true IIIB would not be able to protrude the jaw far enough to become an upstream"

That statement is just not correct.

According to Doc jaw position has nothing to do with the dirction of the airstream. Why would there be a type IVA then ? The jaw is slightly receded and the air still goes up.

I have seen IIIB's who play with the horn almost horizontal ( Dave Sheetz for example ). There are IIIA's who play with the horn even higher than that! ( Pee Wee Erwin is a good example, A IIIA who points the horn at the ceiling ) And no matter what they do with their jaw's, they will always be downstream types.

And what about all the IIIB's who eventually became strait type IV's ( Scott Holbert, Paul Garret to name a few ) What about their jaw's ? During their career's they played successfully as type IV's AND IIIB's.

A IIIB can protrude his jaw until it snaps off and the air will always go down, and the type IV's can recede their jaw's until they touch their tonsil's and the air will always go up. The direction of the airstream is determined ONLY by which lip dominates ( or protrudes ) in the cup.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2002-12-17 11:44 ]

[bgibson]

I am not talking about the horn angle.
I am talking about how far the jaw protrudes.
See other posts "I have typed you a ________ for now."
How far does Scott's and Paul's jaws protrude as opposed to Dave, Roger Homefield and myself?
I have seen IIIA's that can protrude the jaw very far. I thought the IIIB jaw could not go out as far.
I could see someone changing types during their embouchure development period. I believe Doc also thought that way. Why else would he write "for now"?
WEG

[Mr.Hollywood]

If a IIIB, or any type for that matter has a long enough jaw they can protrude it as much or as little as they want to.

Ask Dave Sheetz, he and I have had long talks on this very subject. He told me that for years ( even while he studied with Doc ) that he played with his jaw very receded. He said that he looked like the classic "IIIB type symphony player ". After years of " meat hooking it ", and mashing his top lip, he deciced that he was going to take a whole summer and "work on his jaw " He told me that every day he would play Concone studies reading the music " though his arm's " ( so that his jaw would protrude ) until his jaw would ache. Gradually, he said , his jaw started to come out more and more as he played.

If you watch him play now his horn angle is practically horizontal.

The point is that he was typed by Doc as a IIIB in 1949 and is still a IIIB, even though he drastically changed his horn angle.

He even took a few lessons with Roy Stevens. Roy had him doing the statics ( Tripple high squeaks done with the horn in the palm of your hand ) He told me that Roy was convinced that he was now playing uptream, but whenever he went back to Doc and was checked on a plastic mouthpiece....... he was still a IIIB downstream.

Happy holidays to all,

Chris

[kzem]

I had a question about this, also. I've been typed as a IIIA by Dave Sheetz and Scott Holbert, but I have trouble pushing my jaw out. My horn angle is slightly downward. At first, Scott thought I'd be a IIIB, but after a few more looks, he agreed with Dave on the IIIA.

What are some other exercises to help get the jaw to push out a bit? I remember Dave telling me about the "looking at the music through his arms" story, and I've been doing that a bit. I know a lot of downstream players that could benefit from this.

Kurt Z

[bgibson]

Chris;
We are off the original topic again! Rich is going to come down on me again!
Can a IIIB's jaw go out as far as a IV's??????????????????
I am not talking about horn angle, I am talking about how far the jaw goes out.

Kurt Z;
The" Jaw Retention Drill" in the Encyclopedia (the Augmented Encyclopedia)

Now back to the original thread, a IV could use a smaller diameter mpc. than a IIIA. The mpc you said you were using might not be a good first choice. I think Scott Holbert and/or Doug Elliott could suggest a better choice for a trombone mouthpiece.
WEG