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Derek Reaban
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Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 4221
Location: Tempe, Arizona
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 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: Question for Peter Bond |
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Peter,
Since I’ve adopted a new style of articulation (anchor, dorsal, KTM) I discovered recently that flutter tonguing has become an issue. This was never a problem in the past because my tongue was never touching the front of my mouth, but I found some problems in the band arrangement of Slava (our concert was last night). I let some of the other players cover the flutter tongue parts because I just couldn’t coordinate this technique into my new playing set-up (it’s amazing how many tools are simply on auto-pilot after 30 years of playing). Since my tongue is very involved in the act of sound production as well as articulation, it seemed very foreign to me to “pull it back” for the flutter tongue motion.
I’m guessing that I will simply need to allow my tongue to move back from the front of my mouth so that I can flutter, and then let it move forward so that it’s lightly touching for the rest of my playing. I wasn’t comfortable (this was my first wind ensemble concert since I changed my articulation set up back in April) adding flutter tonguing back into the mix yet (multiple tonguing has been enough of a challenge to get up to an acceptable speed).
On this same issue, do you find that there are times when an alternate approach to articulation is appropriate for the music that you play? For instance, you articulate with the forward tongue (in all styles – legato / staccato and everything between) say 90% of the time, and then tongue with the “tip” for music that requires a sound different than you can achieve with the forward articulation?
Thanks!
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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Peter Bond
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 1455
Location: Metropolitan Opera
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Question for Peter Bond |
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| Derek Reaban wrote: | Peter,
Since I’ve adopted a new style of articulation (anchor, dorsal, KTM) I discovered recently that flutter tonguing has become an issue. This was never a problem in the past because my tongue was never touching the front of my mouth, but I found some problems in the band arrangement of Slava (our concert was last night). I let some of the other players cover the flutter tongue parts because I just couldn’t coordinate this technique into my new playing set-up (it’s amazing how many tools are simply on auto-pilot after 30 years of playing). Since my tongue is very involved in the act of sound production as well as articulation, it seemed very foreign to me to “pull it back” for the flutter tongue motion.
I’m guessing that I will simply need to allow my tongue to move back from the front of my mouth so that I can flutter, and then let it move forward so that it’s lightly touching for the rest of my playing. I wasn’t comfortable (this was my first wind ensemble concert since I changed my articulation set up back in April) adding flutter tonguing back into the mix yet (multiple tonguing has been enough of a challenge to get up to an acceptable speed).
On this same issue, do you find that there are times when an alternate approach to articulation is appropriate for the music that you play? For instance, you articulate with the forward tongue (in all styles – legato / staccato and everything between) say 90% of the time, and then tongue with the “tip” for music that requires a sound different than you can achieve with the forward articulation?
Thanks! |
I do change tongue position to flutter tongue, but it has never given me any trouble.
The only time I articulate with the tip of my tongue (I think), is sometimes for very low, awkward passages, or occasionally for legato articulations in a musical line. When I was doing big band work, I would articulate between my teeth for "ghosted" notes. The upshot is, you do what you have to to to get the desired musical effect. The technique should serve the music. If the music suffers, find a different technique.
I use anchor or dorsal tonguing for 98% of my playing (primarily because it's the way I speak), and it seems to allow or enable techniques like multiple tonguing, great flexibility, lip trills, and high register security, that the "tip of tongue" method makes difficult, impossible, or "a roll of the dice."
As with embouchure set-ups, we're all slightly different, so I back away from a rigid definition when teaching or describing it. We all find our own interpretation.
I hope this answered your questions.
Peter Bond |
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_dcstep
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 6324
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I can't add much to anything Peter Bond might say on the subject.
I'll just say that I too use dorsal tonguing and I simply "unplant" my tongue briefly for flutter tonguing. Generally the flutter tonguing is in a range where I don't need the extra support of my tongue to reach the notes. If you're talking about flutter tonguing above high-C, then that might be a different matter.
Dave
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Derek Reaban
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Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 4221
Location: Tempe, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Peter,
Thanks for digging back a few pages to find this and answer my question!
I had guessed that flutter tonguing could only be achieved by backing away from the dorsal / anchor tongue approach. As I become a little more secure each day with this approach to articulation / sound production, I know that I will soon be able to explore this “new” technique of moving back and forth between my standard flutter and my new forward articulation.
| Quote: |
I use anchor or dorsal tonguing for 98% of my playing (primarily because it's the way I speak)…
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I found this to be extremely interesting. I know that both you and Wilmer have mentioned in past discussions that it important to articulate on the trumpet in the same way that you would speak. I always took this to mean that the majority of people don’t speak with their tongues coming between their teeth. But, you’ve sparked my interest here, and brought up a very old memory for me.
When I was in elementary school I had a few years of speech classes to correct a few sounds that were late in developing (my S was odd). At this point, I can’t remember exactly what I was doing wrong, but with practice, I corrected production of this sound so that I sounded “normal”. Then, several years later, I got braces and had to go see another speech person because I had something called a tongue thrust. As I recall, I would push on my bottom teeth with my tongue all the time, and the orthodontist wanted to fix so that the braces could do their job without any interference from me.
I vividly remember having to hold a button in my mouth in the place where I say the word “Tea” with the flat part on the top of my tongue (right at the front of my tongue). I can’t remember how long I had to hold that stupid button in my mouth (with a string tied to it so I would swallow the button), but apparently it did the trick.
My point with this story is that at a young age I had to alter the way my tongue worked so that it would be in line with “the norm”. When I articulate in the way that I speak, that flat part in the front of my tongue (on top) goes to where I had to hold that button (for weeks or months, I’ve blotted out that bad experience until just reading your post).
Thank you for clarifying how you speak! I think that the vast majority of people speak with the tip of the tongue touching that “Tea” spot, instead of with the anchor / dorsal approach. Knowing that fact about you really helps to clarify the statement that you “articulate like you would speak the phrase”.
For me, I have better clarity when I speak with the tip of my tongue making D and T sounds and MUCH better clarity in articulation on the trumpet when I use the dorsal / anchor approach. It’s taken me 30 years to figure that out, but at least I did figure it out!
Thanks for the detail that you have written about your articulation style in the past. Your posts on this topic are some of the best advice that I have ever read about articulating.
Take care,
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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Derek Reaban
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 4221
Location: Tempe, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| _dcstep wrote: | I can't add much to anything Peter Bond might say on the subject.
I'll just say that I too use dorsal tonguing and I simply "unplant" my tongue briefly for flutter tonguing. Generally the flutter tonguing is in a range where I don't need the extra support of my tongue to reach the notes. If you're talking about flutter tonguing above high-C, then that might be a different matter.
Dave |
Thanks Dave! Glad to know that that several of us are going about this in the same way!
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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