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rwendell New Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2011 Posts: 2 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | Just put your lips together and blow. |
I did that for years and all it did was ruin my lips until I finally got some good advice. Some people are lucky enough to have your advice work for them. Most are not! |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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There is no link. |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I actually couldn't whistle at all, then suddenly discovered I could whistle quite well after having played trumpet for a few years, _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill) |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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I can whistle quite well, I can even do a mean double tongued sleigh ride. I love doing it, I whistle all the time but, after years I can say it only helps with ear training. period |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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There seems to be a similarity in tongue movement between trumpet and whistling. But the two acomplish different things. In whistling the tongue doesn't impact the embouchure muscles. With the trumpet it is part of the the effort that the embouchure makes to make the aperture smaller and bigger.
Whistling: aperture doesn't change with pitch (check it in a mirror).
Trumpet: it does.
With whistling the tongue seems very relaxed. With trumpet it seems to exert a lot of effort in conjunction with the other muscles of the face. My experience anyway
I conclude that whistling has no impact on the physical aspect of trumpet playing, positive or negative. But I guess it could give you a sense of the movement that the tongue makes for whatever that might be worth. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:56 am Post subject: |
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The tongue moves in the same general way to change register when playing a brass instrument as it does when whistling (as almost all the Flexibility books point out).
The tongue moves toward the position it's in when say the word "sea" for higher notes and it moves toward the position it's in when saying the word "saw" for lower notes. Note that in both cases, the tip of the tongue stays down in the area just behind the bottom front teeth. That's why using the method of tonguing described early-on by Liberati and Herbert L. Clarke (what Claude Gordon refers to as K-Tongue Modified or KTM) is critical, as this method of tonging keeps the tip down low behind those bottom front teeth and out of the way of the airstream. Though the exact position of the tongue on any particular note at any particular volume level cannot be described, it can be felt. While it is helpful to be aware of the general way the tongue moves when playing (or when whistling), routine practice is essential to build up the "knack" or "feel" of it until it works correctly by habit.
Since the tongue moves in similar ways when changing register during both whistling and playing, it is useful with a developing player to use whistling to have him (or her) demonstrate to himself the feeling of how the tongue needs to move. And this is one of the rare times I use mouthpiece buzzing in my teaching. Typically, when I have a new student who isn't aware of how the tongue works, I'll have that student whistle glissandos (siren-like sounds) and tell him to pay attention to how his tongue moves. Then I'll have him take his mouthpiece and buzz similar glissandos on it, and note again, the movement of the tongue to facilitate those glissandos. Then it's just a matter of adding the trumpet and doing some easy slurs (it's important not to make it too difficult for the younger or newer student at this point since our goal is to demonstrate the feel of it). Perhaps I'll have the student slur between Low C and Middle C a few times, or if he can easily, between Middle G and High C (on top the staff).
But again, the simple knowledge of how it works in general, doth not a virtuoso maketh. One can explain all day to someone else how to perform gymnastics on the double bars or a floor routine. It's not going to turn that person into a gymnast. But practice will. And if the person knows the basics of how things work and what they should concentrate on when practicing, results will happen sooner.
Lastly, the OP mentioned that after playing a lot, whistling was difficult. He surmised that this was due to his lips being tired. I submit that perhaps it was more than just tired lips. I suggest that it was his tongue that was tired. The tongue is filled with muscle and that muscle gets a work out when we play. Not just from tonguing the notes, but also from arching up and resisting the powerful airstream generated for high notes.
If you're interested, some more info on the subject is available at the Webpage under my name.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
How Tongue Arch Affects and Promotes a Successful Embouchure _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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There could be a link, for some trumpet embouchures. Consider how the sound is started if the initial dynamics is ppp. The whistled note becomes the "seed" for the note sounding from the horn. |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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You are correct... aperture size doesn't change pitch when whistling... I've always known that, but I guess that never "clicked" before... and I've always felt like what I do when whistling feels the same as what I do in the upper register with my tongue.
can't believe I didn't put 2 and 2 together before. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill) |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I teach middle school band. I tell my kids that changing notes on a brass instrument is exactly the same as changig notes while whistling. I teach this concept while they are buzzing on the mouthpiece. It seems to work well.
This thread is validating to my method, which is nice. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I tell my kids that changing notes on a brass instrument is exactly the same as changig notes while whistling. |
But it is NOT exactly the same. There is one similar action and that is the tongue movement. Other than that there is no other similarity. The whistling embouchure is what is required to whistle and it will never produce a sound on the instrument.
The tongue movement for whistling is required in a linear way to the pitch you are whistling. The tongue movement for playing is a compliment to the what the embouchure muscles require as you ascend. It is not what determines the pitch as in whistling.
I find that the tongue movement for playing is more "exponential". You can play a wide range of pitches with little movement and the arch increases more drastically only with the highest pitches. But even that depends on your style of embouchure. |
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Trumpet Seeker Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2018 Posts: 24 Location: Penn Yan, New York
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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This is fascinating that Clifford Brown whistled for a hour as part of his warm-up. He had such beautiful tone! OK---please advise me. I usually start my warm-up with mouthpiece buzzing. Should I whistle before or after buzzing the mouthpiece. _________________ Mister Trumpet
Getzen Capri C in lacquer
Getzen Capri C in silver
Selmer Radial B-flat in lacquer
Selmer Radial B-Flat silver and gold
Couesnon convertible 1951 |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Whistling or mouthpiece buzzing is not required and detrimental. Play the full instrument even when you begin your warmup. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Trumpet Seeker wrote: | ... Should I whistle before or after buzzing the mouthpiece. |
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The important thing is that those activities are used as physical exercises for the various muscles, with the goal of improving the player's overall control of the muscles - not to train the muscles to act in a specific manner for playing.
Do whatever feels good and helpful, but don't force yourself to 'play that way'.
Good playing technique might use some actions that are similar to buzzing or whistling, but that's because the technique is good - not because it is similar to B or W. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:54 am Post subject: |
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The mythology is astounding to me. |
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astadler Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2014 Posts: 130 Location: Little Rock, AR
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Whistling or mouthpiece buzzing is not required and detrimental. Play the full instrument even when you begin your warmup. |
*Some feel it's detrimental. Many others feel that buzzing is a great practice tool. It's up to each individual (and their teacher) to decide for themselves what works and what doesn't. Let's try to avoid framing our own beliefs as if they're some sort of irrefutable truth. _________________ Andrew Stadler |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:35 am Post subject: |
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zackh411 wrote: | I actually couldn't whistle at all, then suddenly discovered I could whistle quite well after having played trumpet for a few years, |
I've been playing for over 50 years and I still can't whistle. Maybe I should stop playing? |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | zackh411 wrote: | I actually couldn't whistle at all, then suddenly discovered I could whistle quite well after having played trumpet for a few years, |
I've been playing for over 50 years and I still can't whistle. Maybe I should stop playing? |
I can whistle great, but my trumpet range sucks! _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | zackh411 wrote: | I actually couldn't whistle at all, then suddenly discovered I could whistle quite well after having played trumpet for a few years, |
I've been playing for over 50 years and I still can't whistle. Maybe I should stop playing? |
OTOH, I’m probably a world class whistler but can’t play the trumpet worth a damn….so which one should I quit? |
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Trumpet Seeker Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2018 Posts: 24 Location: Penn Yan, New York
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:47 am Post subject: |
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For now, this is what I am doing---though I'm open to further suggestions---I do mouthpiece buzzing with the piano briefly to start my warm-up. Then breathing exercises, and then on with my session. I'm only using whistling after my trumpet cool-down to relax my embouchure. I whistle along with a song I'm working on which provides a double benefit, I think. Please let me know what you think of this procedure. _________________ Mister Trumpet
Getzen Capri C in lacquer
Getzen Capri C in silver
Selmer Radial B-flat in lacquer
Selmer Radial B-Flat silver and gold
Couesnon convertible 1951 |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1783
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Trumpet Seeker wrote: | For now, this is what I am doing---though I'm open to further suggestions---I do mouthpiece buzzing with the piano briefly to start my warm-up. Then breathing exercises, and then on with my session. I'm only using whistling after my trumpet cool-down to relax my embouchure |
Do what you want. Explore. Figure out what works for you and what doesn't.
That being said, whistling to "relax" your embouchure doesn't make much sense. Most athletes, after an intense session, employ a cool down that is very similar to their sport. Runners jog/walk, and cyclists do low effort on the trainer. You should employ the same if your goal is a "cool down." Low effort easy playing. If you just want to whistle, you do you. |
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