Is there a correlation?

Buzz · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:10 am Post subject:

At the suggestion of a private teacher, I have been working on teaching myself to free buzz higher. I'm wondering if there truly is a positive correlation between how high you can free buzz and how high you can play. It seems to me that there is. I'm kind of unclear if my improvement in range is because I've learned to buzz higher, or if it's just the byproduct of lip compression.
Meg

MF Fan · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:30 pm Post subject:

I think it varies by player. A number of pros have said the can't really buzz at all, but have tremendous range on the horn. I believe it has something to do with the 'type' of embouchure you play with: Downstream players can buzz more easily, so it's easier to transition the skill to the horn. Everyone I've asked says playing and buzzing are two different things and not to get hung-up on it.

Buzz · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:40 pm Post subject:

Yeah... I've kinda thought it was a chicken and egg thing for me. I'm just thankful that the range is coming. I couldn't buzz higher until I learned to compress my lips, and as my range develops my airstream seems to become more centered. As that happens I'm able to buzz higher. Thanks for the response, MF.
Meg

PC · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:50 pm Post subject:

Hi Meg,

I like to do quite a bit of lip buzzing on my walk from work to the bus stop (I know, I probably look and sound dead silly, but I believe it is for a grand cause, namely the audience's enjoyment at my next concert!), doing Stamp exercise starting on tuning C and going down as far as I can - typically double pedal C, B, or Bb, depending on the temperature (incidentally we went from -22° C to +4 in 2 days!), and then expanding up again on a major arpeggio of 2 octaves until I can no more (on good days I reach high C, C# or D).

I think the benefits are getting a focused aperture, inducing lip movement a la roll out roll in in BE. Also, it helps later on trumpet to find the pitch centre, I believe. But don't overdo it, no more than 10 min followed by enough rest before actual trumpet playing. I do believe I got better endurance since starting this routine and manage to mash a bit less my lips into the mouthpiece. Again, one thing to avoid is trying to consciously lip one self from note to note while playing the horn for good (i. e. playing real music): then, one should forget about all the practice room tricks and think only sound and musicality.

Cheers,
Pierre.

DSR · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:53 am Post subject:

Some "types" (see the Reinhardt forum) are capable of buzzing higher than others. For example, most downstream players have the capability of free buzzing higher than upstream players. Although upstream players tend to have explosive range (more so than the downstreams) when they have the hermetic seal of the mouthpiece.

Because upstream players free buzz with their airstream in a downward direction, but have their upstream going in an upward direction while they are playing, they are incapable and reproducing the upper tones while free buzzing.

-B

Batmann · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 112

Huh:???:

bachstrad72 · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:04 am Post subject:

This may seem like a dumb question, but how does one determine his/her own 'type'. And what do these types mean?

DSR · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:46 am Post subject:

I'm speaking Donald S. Reinhardt lingo and hence the brackets saying "see Reinhardt forum". I can explain.

Dr. Reinhardt studied thousands of players through plexiglass mouthpieces and discovered that, contrary to others' beliefs, a brass performers airstream either enters the mouthpiece in an upward direction or a downward direction. He called them upstream players and downstream players. You are all either upstream players or downstream players...it is impossible to be anything else. This has been proven.

Anyway, Reinhardt also found between similarities players' embouchures. He categorized players into four types (I, II, III, IV) and nine subtypes (I, IA, II, IIA, III, IIIA, IIIB, IV, IVA). Each type has particular qualities. For example, a type III, which I'm sure some of you are, has a low downward horn angle and has slightly more top lip in the mouthpiece than bottom lip. Also, each type is either downstream or and upstream. I, III, IIIA, and IIIB and downstream. II, IIA, IV, and IVA are upstream.

So what I was saying was, depending on what "type" you are, you may have more difficulty free buzzing upper tones. Very few players can buzz and high as they can play.

Succinctly, I could have said, "As a result of their physiology, certain individuals won't have the free buzzing abilities that other players may posess."

Sorry.

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2003-01-08 09:53 ]

DSR · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:48 am Post subject:

Bachstrad 72,

How do you determine your type?

Buy the encyclopedia of the pivot system. Read it. Study it.

kzem · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 8:48 am Post subject:

I know that Nick Drozdoff has some really good sound bytes of himself lip buzzing all over the horn. I don't think he lip buzzes as high as he plays, though. Also, doesn't Clyde Hunt really advocate lip buzzing?
I'm a type IIIA, and have a really difficult time buzzing with my exact same playing set-up. I haven't got it to the point where I think it's helping, though.

Kurt Z

Buzz · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:09 pm Post subject:

Paul Garrett told me I was a downstream type IIIB. I bought the encyclopedia of the pivot and a magnifying glass to read it with. Wow... the new version, that I understand Rich Willey is responsible for setting type for... is a little harsh....really small print, and it's difficult to understand. I think you need an interpreter for it. There's just so much to remember..."Do not take this lightly." I find Jeff Smiley's book much more helpful.
Meg

MF Fan · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:56 am Post subject:

Just a quick thought on buzzing: I think there is a risk to be on the look-out for...I found that I tended to pinch in an attempt to buzz higher. This was accompanied by extra upper-body tension, throat obstruction from the tounge, etc. Needless to say these habits can be devastating if you transfer the same behaviors to the horn. You really need to be sure you're buzzing with the same breathing and air support you use on the horn or you may find yourself moving in the wrong direction..

_bugleboy · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:28 am Post subject:

You are all either upstream players or downstream players...it is impossible to be anything else. This has been proven.

All players who have been observed, are observed to be either upstream or downstream. If I understand it correctly, this is the proof being offered that all players are either upstream or downstream. However, from this "proof" it does not follow, logically, that all players are either upstream or downstream. Not all players who have ever existed, or will exist have been observed. What the clear mpc observations prove is that there is a degree of probability that you are either upstream or downstream.

My interest would be more in knowing if there are differences in the degree of angle between developed embouchures and beginners or intermediates. I'm not sure what the importance is whether the air goes up or down. But it might be significant if it was observed that the angle becomes more centered as the embouchure develops.

The General · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:21 am Post subject:

tom turner · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:05 am Post subject:

Bruce,

Whether performing spit-buzzing or other bodily functions, we Georgians have learned by experience to be up rather than down.

Errrrrr, sorry . . . you were talking upstream vs. downstream . . . not upwind vs. downwind.

Oh well . . . NEVER MIND!

Humorously yours,

Tom

PS: You were correct on the need to avoid the extra tension!!!

_Don Herman · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:22 am Post subject:

The concern, for me, is to ensure that if you lip buzz you play the same way (i.e., same embouchure setting). Otherwise, in the best case you may not be helping yourself much, and in the (potentially) worst case you may training yourself into a new embouchure which MAY or MAY NOT be a Good Thing. Only you can tell. Just be careful what you start! As the other posters have mentioned, lip buzzing should be taken in small doses (Pops sez so too, if that lends me any credibility). Nothing like driving home for 30 minutes, buzzing like mad along with the songs on the radio and feeling pretty good about things, only to get home and put the horn up to find out your lips are already toast. Trust me on this.

My 0.0001 cent - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

Buzz · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:45 pm Post subject:

My question is positively algebraic. Charly Raymond's post is full of geometry and logic. I LOVE gettin' worked up into a trumpet geeky frenzy. I've decided to quit worrying about the correlation and just be thankful for the progress! Did I tell you (all) HA! that I can do lip trills now, too? More than anything, I think it's remarkable that after hmmmm... 30 somethin' years of playing, not only do I find the trumpet completely fascinating but I'm thrilled to work really hard to find out something new about my first love everyday.
Meg

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:26 pm Post subject:

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

For me, it's hard to buzz a pitch above High C sharp or D on a 3C mouthpiece, although I can sometimes get nice sounding E's and Double G's out on the mouthpiece...But it's easier to play high on the trumpet because the extra pressure makes it a little easier to play high. Also, I was taught to always buzz with two fingers while holding the mouthpiece at the very tip of the pipe, so it makes it harder to play high because it requires more mouth muscles to do that than if you're just using the normal about of pressure. But it helps, I'd recommend it. The key to buzzing is really just to come to grips with the correct embouchure and it's also a great way to start the playing day. But it's a good thing if you can play the notes on the mouthpiece, it's just that the pitches are vague sometimes because you can't press valves down and I try to use as little pressure as possible.

Buzz · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 8:43 am Post subject:

Hiya Accent! I don't buzz on my mouthpiece. I use the mouthpiece and the leadpipe. Actually, Gary Radtke taught me about that. If you want to know more take a look at the Bill Adam forum on TH. There's lots of good info there. Ummm... I don't buzz on the mouthpiece for reasons you've stated... I tend to use too much pressure. Even if I'm late to a rehearsal or something, I try to leave my mpc alone. I free buzz instead. It just seems that I wear myself out really easily when I buzz on a mpc, and for some reason, after buzzing the leadpipe, I find it easier to play my horn with less pressure, and it feels like there is less resistance.
Meg

[ This Message was edited by: buzz on 2003-01-10 13:42 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Buzz on 2003-01-10 13:45 ]