cornerstones of reinhardt's research and teachings

doublehighwhat · Regular Member Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

Hello,

I'm fairly new to the forum and I've been reading most of the posts concerning Reinhardt's research, teaching and beliefs, and i'm quite intrigued by the whole thing as I have never been exposed to any of his work.

I'm definitely considering buying his book, but first I wanted to check with you all who advocate the system and see what you would say are the cornerstones to the Reinhardt study?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 7:45 am Post subject:

scream · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:48 am Post subject:

Hi Doublehighwhat....

Please go to http://www.pivotalk.com for more info on getting the Pivot Encyclopedia. There are some articles on the site written by Dave Sheetz, a long time student and friend of Doc's. You will also get a lot of information on this forum from a lot of former students of Doc's. Rich Willey and Chris LaBarbera are VERY informative as well as Bill Gibson. I chime in every once in a while myself......heed Rich's "warning"......be ready to dismiss "old school" thinking about trumpet (brass) playing. If you don't, you're in for a bumpy ride.

Good Luck!!!!

_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA

"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2003-01-13 13:49 ]

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

You must be prepared to approach the "Pivot System" with an open mind.
Doc was the absolute master of embouchure.
I owe him my career.
WEG

doublehighwhat · Regular Member Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

I've struggled with embouchure placement since a teacher of mine recomended an embouchure move my freshman year of college. I have now found the spot that is most efficient for me, but seeing as how the teacher who was working on things with me has moved on to another school, and I'm not interested in studying with the current teacher for reasons that I'll keep out of this thread, I'm having problems further developing my "new" chops.

My problems are:

of course in endurance through the middle and upper register.

A turbulent, almost double buzz-type, muddiness in my tone below g in the staff, especially when tonguing.

And, an even sound throughout the different registers.

I'm trying to find some way to go where I can learn how to properly and efficiently develop my new chops. I think that a lot of my problems come from both lack of confidence in my playing since I have struggled so much with the embouchure move, and a few bad habits in the using too much pressure department that I have developed from having to fight the high register throughout the time I've been working on the embouchure relocation.

Is Doc's book what I need? Is the system too complex for me to follow and benefit from on my own, as in do I need a teacher who specializes in Doc's method?

Any input you all can give is appreciated in many ways. I just want to get back to being a trumpet player...not a struggling trumpet player.

Thanks

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Dear doublehighwhat;
The encyclopedia is something you should own.
I would suggest contacting one of Doc's former students off list for a lesson.
Most of us will tell you we need to see and hear you in order to help you.
Dave Sheetz is available for video lessons.
Since I don't know where you are located I am unable to tell you which former Reinhardt student is in your area.
Our moderator would be a good person to ask for assistance in the location/selection of a teacher.
WEG

scream · Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:22 am Post subject:

Hi...me again!

I agree with Bill. Getting the encyclopedia is a step in the right direction. The best thing to do is get with a Pivot System teacher. There's a list at http://www.pivotalk.com. Dave Sheetz is the one I would go to if I could. Chris LaBarbera, Bill Gibson, Rich Willey as well as myself or any of the others may be close to you. Take a lesson if you can.

I'll give you some things to think about and work on in the meantime (this DOES NOT take the place of a one on one with an instructor):

1. Your endurance problem is a basic lack of efficiency of your present embouchure developement. If you are practicing on a "malformed" embouchure you are just reinforcing a bad embouchure. And no amount of air will fix that if you are being told to use more air.

2. A double buzz is an indication of weak mouth corners as well as a flabby, unfirm chin area. Doc would recommend learning to buzz WITHOUT the mouthpiece. This only works if your airstream is in a downward direction, although I understand Doc would prescribe this to an upstream player in certain cases. Slightly roll your bottom lip over your bottom teeth, reach down with your top lip and slightly overlap your bottom lip. Blow a light stream of air, and do not buzz anything lower than a second line "G". DO NOT let any pocket of air form in the bottom lip. To do this right, the chin and corners will be firm. Try to buzz a couple of minutes a day, different pitches (no tonguing) or little ditties (no tonguing). Do this AWAY from your practice time. DO NOT buzz on tired chops or buzz until you feel fatigued. Over time this will firm up your embouchure and your time buzzing will extend as strength increases.....but be patient. This will not happen overnight.

3. An uneven sound could be many things. First thing that comes to mind is you MIGHT be using multiple embouchures. I also question where you may be placing the mouthpiece. If your teacher is telling you to place in the center of your embouchure, he is not taking into account the high spots you may have on your teeth as well as your jaw malloclusion. I play slightly off to my left from low F# to B above high C and to double C on great days (I have a double C plus everyday, I'm working on getting it to open up more)....on one embouchure with the same sound throughout the register. That's the goal....to play on one embouchure throughout your range (Now if I could only play jazz like Rich Willey, I'm working on that too).
Here's a drill Doc came up with to help your placement. On your buzzing embouchure, while buzzing with your eyes closed, place the mouthpiece on your buzzing embouchure (sorry for the repetition, I want to make sure I get this across). Be sure to retain that embouchure when placed. You may not place where you normally do and have multiple buzzes, but don't worry about that. Listen to the sound after you've placed, hold it out. Doc said "Sound determines placement, not feel. What sounds good doesn't necessarily feel good." That placement will get more consistant with repetition as well as an improvement in your sound. And that multiple buzz you had will eventually become one.

I can't help you anymore here. Really try to hook up with a Pivot System teacher. That will be your best bet.

Best of Luck!!!
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

doublehighwhat · Regular Member Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

hey guys thanks for the input.

1. I'm from NW arkansas if you might know of anyone in the area.

2. I've been working some on lip buzzing(no mouthpiece) but I haven't tried it with the lip over bottom teeth, etc like you have recomend me to try, so I will work with that.

3. My embouchure is off center to the right side because of a high spot it my teeth and the cupid's bow (are you familiar with that term) in my upper lip. The combination of the high spot and my lip structure sends the air out off centered to the right side. I will try the embouchure placement test that you wrote about though for sure to see what i get going that route.

4. I am suspect to switching my embouchure is I don't really focus on making myself not move anything in terms of placement. I've developed this habit through about three years of playing with my upper lip pulled up and back which gave me a really open aperture for the low register, and now trying to make myself play with a more efficient, closed aperture which allows me to make jumps in register much easier than my previous setting.

I appreciate you all taking the time to help. Going into college I was one of the top players in the state, but lacked endurance. So the idea was to do a little embouchure tweaking since I played with the mouthpiece way down on my bottom lip, to make it where I was at least 50/50 on upper lip to lower lip positioning. Well, this whole thing pretty much backfired and I currently can't even play the pieces that I played in my audition for my scholarship in college. It's 4 years later now, and I'm still working hard to get through the whole mess, but the whole situation has gotten very old as it seems I'm unable to progress much at all on anything.

Thanks for helping out

doublehighwhat · Regular Member Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

ok, just went through about a twenty minute session.

I started with lip buzzing as described in the above posts. That went better than it was going the other way I had been trying to lip buzz.

so I start buzzing a G with just my lips, close my eyes and put the mouthpiece to the buzzing lips and allow it to move around until I got the best, richest buzz. It ended up being just a bit more right of where I had been. Visually I can't really tell much of a difference in location now that I've looked, but there is a difference in response.

so, to the horn. Guess what? as long as I make sure I don't change anything at all in my setting, the tone is great, there is no double buzz, and the articulation is clear. Sound is fairly uniform from top to bottom with the exception being that after I play for a few minutes the corners start to get tired and I lose some sound quality from 4th space e and up.

The main differences in this setting from the one I discussed earlier is the lower lip. The lower lip pulled back slightly over the teeth firmed my corners up tremendously. I had been pushing the lips forward once I analyze it, making me have too much tissue in the mouthpiece, and making it almost impossible to properly firm up the corner.

So, it is a start. Now I'm just hoping there is someone not all too far from me that I could get in to see so I can get the best routine happening to build up the muscles involved in the new setting.

I'm definitely going to do what I can to get a copy of the pivot system ASAP, and to try to get with someone in my area for some direct instruction as I think this system could easily get me going in the right direction.

thanks, and feel free to throw in any information or suggestions that you'd like to throw in

scream · Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:18 am Post subject:

E-mail me off the forum: scream@mindspring.com
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:29 am Post subject:

scream · Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:20 am Post subject:

Good catch there Dave. That does sound like a potential upstream embouchure. Endurance is definitely a problem as well as a dicey lower range...initially. And you are also talking about "3 legs" with a Type IV, upstream as opposed to "4 Legs" with a type III, downstream. And finding your "legs" is a project in itself and needs to be addressed in person with a qualified instructor.

I'm e-mailing Doublehighwhat Dave Sheetz pertinent information.
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

doublehighwhat · Regular Member Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

Thanks for throwing in your advice Wilktone. Much appreciated.

Scream has been nice enough to give me contact information where I can possibly set up some video lessons and try to get things going.

Needless to say, playing has been very frustrating since college started, and I'm very anxious to do whatever I can to get things better once again.

Thanks to both of you for your input and help!!!!

Shane