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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: Looking for a C trumpet mouthpiece... |
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I used to use a 1-1/2C 24/24 with my Bach Chicago, but I recently downsized mouthpieces. I now use a Reeves 42M on my Bb, and I want something around the same diameter for use on C trumpet. I was looking into a Mt. Vernon 6B with a 24 backbore, because on the Kanstul comparator it looks like it would work well with my Reeves piece.
Does anyone have any recommendations?
Thanks. _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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ExtraLargeBore Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2009 Posts: 454
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Bach 6BM, comes stock with a 26 throat and 24 backbore. |
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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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ExtraLargeBore wrote: | Bach 6BM, comes stock with a 26 throat and 24 backbore. |
But it doesn't have a Mt. Vernon rim... _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8344 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Don't you like your main mouthpiece - 42M - on the C? Do they not "get along?" I know some people have found a really good match between a certain horn - not just a key but a specific horn - and a certain mouthpiece. However, unless it doesn't seem to jive, I don't change. Except with my beater horn (with which I use my beater 1C), I use the same thing - 3C - on my all my horns - Bb, C, Eb, Cornet, even piccolo sometimes (a bit mixed results on the last one). If something works why change?
If it doesn't work - you could just mate your Reeves rim to something with a different cup or backbore. Maintaining as much consistency is probably the best policy. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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The 42M produces a very commercial sound; sounds too bright on C trumpet, the bite makes articulations not quite right for orchestral music, and because of the resistance of the C trumpet the 42M feels stuffy on it. _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8344 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I guess that's a good reason. Maybe a C or B cup with the 42 might work, and a more open backbore.
I'm not sure if changing rim diameter has a big impact on the tone in general. If the rim is comfy and works, them maybe mating it to something deeper and freer might get you what you're looking for. Maybe. That's why Reeves and others use modular pieces - to change depth and/or the blow while maintaining a consistent feel.
(corrected spelling error) _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Last edited by Crazy Finn on Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't there someone in the LA area you go to for a consultation on mouthpieces--in person? You seem to spend a lot of time asking people who don't know you or can't hear you about what mouthpiece to use.
Kent |
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ExtraLargeBore Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2009 Posts: 454
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Adam V wrote: | ExtraLargeBore wrote: | Bach 6BM, comes stock with a 26 throat and 24 backbore. |
But it doesn't have a Mt. Vernon rim... |
Comparing the 6B and MTV6B, the differences are well within what I would say are consistency variations. I have 15 1Cs that all feel different. I have MT vernons that feel different. The Bach 6BM would be you cheapest best option to try. You would at least know if it is close and worth finding a MTV 6B.
A Bach 6 might be good to try as well.
You can't pick a mouthpiece by looking at a picture of the rim contour. If I did that, I would waste even more $ that I do on mouthpiece. Buy some cheap used ones and try them. |
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butxifxnot Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2353
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Why wouldn't a mouthpiece work the same with a Bb and a C? I know Monette folk have a cow when you tell them you're playing a C trumpet on one of their Bb mouthpieces. Could someone explain it to a yokel who plays stuff like the Tomasi on a Bb? _________________ "Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8344 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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oxleyk wrote: | Isn't there someone in the LA area you go to for a consultation on mouthpieces--in person? You seem to spend a lot of time asking people who don't know you or can't hear you about what mouthpiece to use.
Kent |
I agree. It doesn't stop me from doling out some possibly useless advice, but we all have ideas and little way to tell if they're good ones that help or bad ones that hinder.
butxifxnot wrote: | Why wouldn't a mouthpiece work the same with a Bb and a C? |
Well, they're slightly different beasts - usually a Bb blows freer and the C is brighter - but essentially they should respond similarly. I'm guessing the 42M gives him a slightly bright sound on his Bb, and it's exaggerated on the C. Like I said earlier, I pretty much play a 3C on all my horns. That's why I advocate finding a mouthpiece that facilitates your playing and is flexible in terms of style and sound. Then you don't have to worry about your special "orchestra" piece, or "quintet" piece, or "concert band" piece. You just have your mouthpiece - one is all you need. Then you might actually have time to develop some facility and familiarity on it. I'm not knocking people who switch or people who are searching for the right one. I've seen very few people who actually improve while their on their mouthpiece safari. Of course, you may have to try some before you find one that works. Once you start - it's a bit of a catch 22.
Then again, what do I know? _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1808
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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For the OP: If you like your 42M rim, then get a 42 rim with different specifications. Why if you like this rim would you try and find a mouthpiece of different brand and rim .... IMO doesn't make much sense.
You don't have to play a Mt. Vernon to play C trumpet.
Bob reeves offer different specifications for the same rim. What looks like might work would be a 42 rim, C cup, and s backbore.
http://www.bobreeves.com/products/trumpet/index.htm
To those that are wondering why some people switch pieces for Bb and C: There are physical differences between a Bb and a C trumpet so what is needed to balance out and have a decent playing C trumpet that plays "in tune" (which is the biggest difference) is a slightly different mouthpiece. Some may find a Bb and C that are "exactly" the same... and those people are lucky, but few. You don't have to dramatically alter the mouthpiece like go from a 7c to 1X... but some alterations might be good (other than rim).
Also, what you do on a C trumpet is different, it is orchestral (most likely). You wouldn't play your commercial mouthpiece in an orchestra (to play something like Mahler) ... you wouldn't play a Bb mouthpiece on your piccolo. "Use the right tool for the job"
Not knocking those people who don't switch, there are many that don't. If you don't want to switch, I suggest finding a mouthpiece that works for your primary (if you want to be in an orchestra... find one for you C trumpet) and switch as needed.
I would argue however, that the "perfect mouthpiece match" for all around playing on a Bb, will not be "as good a match" on the C trumpet and vice versa. Some people might find a middle ground between the two.
Peter Bond (met opera) wrote: The mouthpiece (most orchestra players have bigger than standard backbores put in, which improves pitch and high register response).
The perfect way to stop any safari: pick a brand that offers a wide variety of variation on specific components. Hone in on the rim that feels great immediately: offers the most response, is comfortable, allows you to play without even feeling it. Once the rim is picked, then keep that rim for all your mouthpiece (excluding the much higher horns.... usually just piccolo). Play with the other components... sticking with the same brand. Then forget about it. |
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hellbrawl Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 17 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi Everyone!
I have the same issue here with my C trumpet,
I recently downsized my Bb mouthpiece to a Yamaha Shew Jazz mouthpiece(I must say I really love it), but the combination between the medium-shallow cup and sound characteristics of the C trumpet clearly doesn't sound right. I am considering getting myself a Bach 3B or a 6B/6BM for trial. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks for listening!
Taavi |
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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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hellbrawl wrote: | Hi Everyone!
I am considering getting myself a Bach 3B or a 6B/6BM for trial. Any thoughts or suggestions? |
I went ahead and ordered a Bach 6BM and it should come in the mail tomorrow (if UPS delivers on Christmas day).
I'll let you know how it works out for me. _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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Blue Trane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2009 Posts: 669 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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hellbrawl wrote: | Hi Everyone!
I have the same issue here with my C trumpet,
I recently downsized my Bb mouthpiece to a Yamaha Shew Jazz mouthpiece(I must say I really love it), but the combination between the medium-shallow cup and sound characteristics of the C trumpet clearly doesn't sound right. I am considering getting myself a Bach 3B or a 6B/6BM for trial. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks for listening!
Taavi |
I'm not familiar with the Shew Jazz mouthpiece but if its rim size is closer to a 3C rim then try the 3B but if it's closer to 6B then try the 6B/6BM. I've used a 3B and it worked very nicely but I prefer a bigger rim 1 1/2 C with a drilled out backbore. My normal mouthpiece is 1 1/2 C stock on the Bb. I also play a 3C or 3D on the commercial or jazz side. My piccolo mouthpiece is a 7E opened up some. In general you want something with a similar rim but deeper or drilled out to get the sound big like on the Bb. |
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hellbrawl Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 17 Location: Estonia
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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It is really hard to tell which rim is more similar to the Jazz piece.
Theoretically, yamahas web site tells me that that the rim diameter of the Shew Jazz mp should be 16.85 mm.
How can this be?
In this case it would sort of equate with a Bach 1 1/2, although it should be a 3c cup.
Anyway, I guess the 3b would be closest option, but on the other hand it really interests me how the 6BM, with the bigger backbore and throat sounds like.
And I pretty much can't tell the difference with the Kanstul comparator anyway... |
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lburrows Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1096 Location: England
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi hellbrawl
Bach mouthpieces (at least pre-strike) were generally larger than specified.
On an alternative version of the Kanstul comparator, that doesn't currently seem to be available, the Yamaha Shew Jazz was included.
It maps perfectly over the Bach 3C, apart from having a slightly rounder rim contour. I have no idea how the throat and backbore compare to a Bach 3C.
I would therefore go for the Bach 3B.
All the best
Lou _________________ I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL |
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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:37 am Post subject: |
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lburrows wrote: | On an alternative version of the Kanstul comparator, that doesn't currently seem to be available, the Yamaha Shew Jazz was included. |
Try this:
http://mysite.verizon.net/dogfish3/kanstul_mpc/CompareJR_FF.html _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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janet842 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 570 Location: Denver metro area
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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If you're able, you might consider a trip up to Salem, Oregon to meet with Jaimie Hall, one of the GR Mouthpiece consultants (probably the closest one to you). They specialize in helping players produce the same sound and uniform response out of all the horns they own - pic, Bb, C, Eb, etc. When your playing reaches the level where you recognize the need for uniformity it's time to put yourself in the hands of a pro and quit the mouthpiece safari. You won't regret it. Jamie is also a Bach player so he will understand the issues you are dealing with.
A safari just switches out one mouthpiece at a time and that mouthpiece will very likely only be suitable for one trumpet and none of the others. A GR Consultation evaluates all your trumpets and the mouthpieces you use for them at one sitting. That's the only real way to find uniformity.
I saw your other post about issues with your Bach C -- it's possible that Jaimie may be able to resolve that for you by putting you on a different mouthpiece. That would be far cheaper than buying a new trumpet. If you switch mouthpieces and still ultimately find that the C trumpet just isn't working for you, then go shopping for a new C.
Janet |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9381 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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So, how's the 6BM working out? I played one one my trumpet for a year or two and still do on cornet when I'm using it in a mixed section. I think it's a very good off-the-shelf mouthpiece. For C trumpet, though, I've been using a Bach 2C I recently bought with a 25 throat and 24 backbore. It really had a nice sound on some Christmas gigs I played this year. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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lburrows Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1096 Location: England
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Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Great!!
Thanks very much for this.
Very much appreciated.
All the best
Lou _________________ I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL |
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