Red Rot Blues

[bebopbenge]

My primary horn recently started getting a few spots on the leadpipe. The folks at Woodwind and Brasswind said there's no stopping it. I've been thinking about plating it but they said it would bubble without replacing the leadpipe. They also said they take measurements of it then match it "best they can" anyone have experience with this?
And any suggestions? A New leadpipe on a vintage horn makes me uneasy.
_________________
Dustin Brown
"Hit it hard and wish it well" C.G

-Equipment -
L.A Benge CG W/ #6 bell
Holton T-602
Yamaha YFH-231 Flugelhorn

[Tim80]

Dustin,

I'm just a comeback hack who enjoys attempting to play a horn. I also have a Benge. When I started playing again I hadn't looked at my horn other than oiling the valves and slides so they wouldn't stick. When I decided I was gonna get serious about playing again I pulled my trusty ol' LA Benge 3X+ out of the case. As I gave it a once over I noticed bubbles in the lead pipe and a few in the main tuning slide. Yep, red rot. I posted on this forum and recieved some good advice. Some of the best advice I recieved was to just keep the horn clean and the red rot may not get too much worse over many years to come. The red rot hasn't eaten through the lead pipe on my horn. So I've decided to leave it alone. The horn sounds and plays ok other than the first valve has plenty of wear. I'm playing a Schilke at this time. Because of sentimental value I would never want to let go of the Benge. To be honest I've tried out several top notch horns and I keep going back to the Benge when all is said and done. The SChilke may displace it however. Another forum member has borrowed it and is playing it now because his Strad is being overhauled. If the damage is just discoloration or bubbling and there isn't any air leakage you may just want to leave it alone other than having it ultrasonically or chem cleaned. Just keep it clean afterwards.
_________________
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire

[tom turner]

Hi,

Sometimes it can be "patched" from the outside but this doesn't look great . . . and the performance of the horn has been in a long, steady decline due to the corrosion acceration in the critical leadpipe area.

Several options . . .

1. With patience you may find a vintage Benge on e-bay with a smashed bell but a perfect leadpipe and get the horn for a "song," and use it for parts. Swapping out a leadpipe on a trumpet is a simple, fast thing to do with the torch and, if its a silver horn it can many times not even show later that it was done hardly at all!

2. Contact Zig and Kanstul. He made the originals and can construct you a brand new "Benge" leadpipe exactly like the one that came on your LA Benge! If your horn's silver is nice and you get a silver one, probably only you would know it wasn't the original one. It will absolutely look the same.

3. IF YOU WANT TO EVEN IMPROVE THE HORN . . .
Check out the Pilczuk "Accusonic" leadpipes (on the BrassInstrumentWorkshop) or the Blackburn leadpipes. I know that Rich Ita will send you an assortment of slightly different Pilczuks, and I imagine Cliff Blackburn would too. This option affords the player a way to customize the playing charecteristics of the instrument to EXACTLY match what he/she likes.

When I got a Pilczuk from Rich for a nice Strad I had it elevated that horn to a new level! BTW, Rich WILL NOT tell you the difference in a 43-59 and a 43-60 . . . or anyother numbering relating to the size of openness and internal flare of the different pipes . . . telling you to just tape 'em to the side of your conventional leadpipe, insert your tuning slide and mouthpiece into the temporarily attached pipe and blow!

The differences WILL be apparent to you. Gosh . . . even AFTER you select the perfect one he probably won't tell you what the numbers mean. Old Gene Pilczuk and Rich correctly feel that many people end up with the wrong equipment because they READ that a certain thing is supposed to do something they feel it should do . . . and that some other piece of equipment is WRONG because they think it wouldn't be right for them. Going into a test in this manner means the player predjudices him/herself away from something that would be the actual perfect match!!!

Food for thought . . . and best wishes on gettin' that fine horn out of "sick bay" again!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[Lex Grantham]

Tom:

I currently am trying out a set of the Pilcjuk leadpipes for my 1959 Olds Recording trumpet courtesy of Rich Ita. The pipes I am auditioning (4 of them) seem to range in blow factors from 1) tight to 2) less tight to 3) somewhat open to 4) more open. As you stated, one has to tape each pipe to the original leadpipe on the horn and then insert the tuning slide.

But what I have found is that the Pilcjuk leadpipes do offer:

1) More centered pitch.

2) Consistency of tone from low to high.

3) Ability to blow with less pressure on the lips and less push from the abdominal muscles. One's endurance and range may certainly be enhanced as a result.

4) Ability to play softly and still attain a very nice sound.

5) When testing the leadpipes with an electric tuner, I have found that more pitches are right on the money...the player may even find that the use of triggers and third valve slide extenders to play in tune will not be as needy as once thought.

Very good product.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

[Lazarus]

Just a quick comment. Tom is right, sometimes the best cure-all is to find a junker on ebay so that you can swap the good parts onto your horn. Do not be afraid of this at all! Your only worries should be concerning what repairman does the work. Even if your horn is laquer, if you get a good repairman, the leadpipe transfer will be barely noticeable. Oftentimes poor repairmen will burn the laquer or discolor it from prolonged excess heat. Granted, some laquer loss is unavoidable, but a skilled leadpipe installation will clean up very well! If minimal heating is used in the installation process, spot laquering at the end of installation is virtually undetectable. At least this is my experience. I have been apprenticing in the local repairshop for about a year and have watched (and done a bit of practice work on 'dog' horns). There are plenty of skilled repairmen throughout the U.S., and there are also plenty of bad ones. Rich Ita is one of THE BEST in the business. I sent one of my vintage cornet into him and he did a superb job. He is very good with vintage instruments and, since he owns Pil. Pipes as well, you could have him do all the work. Just a thought! Best of luck!

By the way, my Bb horn has red rot in the leadpipe and the tuning slide. It's ugly... yet, the horn plays great and I am going to keep it clean until it is necessary to change out the parts. For me its a bit easier, because I can order the parts directly from Kanstul and install them in the shop I work at. Catch you later!
_________________
God Bless,
Stephen O.
_________

Bb Trumpet - Kanstul 1500A
Cornet- 1939 King Master
_________

[tom turner]

You ought to see the work Rich did for me last summer on a second 1911 Boston 3-Star I got on e-bay!

It turned out the valves were stuck solid (not always a bad thing by the way), and all the slides were stuck too. The horn had a really nice original case, full accessories and appeared to have been only sparingly played only long enough to crud it up . . . and then get put away for eighty-five years or so.

The silver was about 98%. Rich touched in up to nearly 100% Geez, I hate it when someone puts a rubberband on a silver spit valve! Now the horn looks soooo much better than my original one!

He said, "Tom, I think you are going to like this one just as well as the first one (I got that one from him)."

He'd actually had to un-solder many joints to free things up after lots of soaking. The darn thing looks fabulous. He said lots of time he can unsolder a horn . . . use the original solder that's still in the joints and flow it all back together. He sure did this time!

I watched him do some horn restoration proceedures for the annual meeting of the "Cornet Conspiracy" at his shop last summer [a group from all over of serious collectors, scholars, technicians, cornet players and worthless scoundrels like me].

Watching him unsolder a bell from a valuable vintage horn to PROPERLY roll out a dent, then reattach the bell so the horn returns to a pre-dented, stress-free state in a matter of moments was cool. He had all sorts of rare and unique tools in his overloaded shop . . . along with all the Pilczuk tooling machines and stuff that I'm glad he's finally had time to revive.

All while he was doing this, in front of a whole lot of knowledgeable collectors and restorers, the great Cliff Blackburn was sitting right there! Talk about potential intimidation!

There was some real talent in the room that day . . . and some great stories over lunch. Priceless!!!

BTW Lex, I found a Pilczuk pipe got me totally lazy once I had Rich install the right one for my tastes on a nice Bach . . . I almost forgot how to operate the third valve ring after that. Didn't need to!

Good to see you post again, the consummate Texas gentleman. I Always enjoy your private e-mails and the dinner we enjoyed with Russell and Rich Willey in Jacksonville.

Warmest regards,

Tom

[tryingtocomeback]

Hi, All!

Regarding red rot, most of the posts I see and most of the articles I read about it talk about red rot in the lead pipe. I have a slightly different problem with my 1942 Martin Committee. About a year ago I dug it out of the basement storage area where it sat in its case for 30+ years during my hiatus. Surprisingly, the valves were still in great condition, the slides moved freely after a little lubrication and gentle persuasion and the sound was still as smooth as ever. I brought it in to Wayne and the guys at Brass Bow and had an ultrasonic cleaning and precsion valve alignment done and the horn sounds like it must have when it was brand new.

Here's the problem. I have recently noticed 2 areas of red rot on the outside of the bell just at and behind the flare. It has eaten through the lacquer and seems to be growing. I don't see any holes or perforations and I don't notice any air leaking. In fact the horn still sounds perfect. But how do I stop the rot?

Changing out a lead pipe is a reasonable solution for problems in the lead pipe, but is it possible to change out a bell? Is it possible to cut out the rotted area and patch it? What would this do to the sound? What about the value of the horn? Where would I find a "junker" '42 Committee for parts?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Matt

[bebopbenge]

Thanks to everybody for their suggestions. I think I'll do a bit more digging on the topic but I'm really considering getting Kanstul parts. Because they have a great reputation and and can make identical parts for Benge horns. Thanks again!
_________________
Dustin Brown
"Hit it hard and wish it well" C.G

-Equipment -
L.A Benge CG W/ #6 bell
Holton T-602
Yamaha YFH-231 Flugelhorn

[Lazarus]

Mr. Turner,

That is an awesome story about Mr. Ita! My cornet was a vintage 1939 King Master cornet with a third valve that looked as if it had been dropped, poorly repaired, and then mashed back into the casing! He repaired it the right way and then sent it over to Anderson Silverplating to be replated (they did a wonderful job by the way). Real class act and wonderful job on the whole. If there is ever a repair conference like that again, please post about it or let me know, I would love to attend if at all possible. I am apprenticing at the local shop and want to go to repair school to get into this business; as such this really intrigues me! I've heard those boston cornets are awesome, but I still have yet to have played one. Best of luck with the red rot. It's a pain, yet often a reoccuring theme at some point in time during a trumpet player's life.

I wonder if it has something to do with acidic nature of certain people's saliva? Hmmm... any comments? It never occured on the horn I owned previously, and I am thinking that because I bought the horn that I have now used, that it may have been from the previous player. I may be way off the mark, but its something to think about.
_________________
God Bless,
Stephen O.
_________

Bb Trumpet - Kanstul 1500A
Cornet- 1939 King Master
_________

[conn53victor]

Trying to comeback wrote, "I have recently noticed 2 areas of red rot on the outside of the bell just at and behind the flare. It has eaten through the lacquer and seems to be growing. I don't see any holes or perforations and I don't notice any air leaking. In fact the horn still sounds perfect. But how do I stop the rot?"

I have the same problem. Any ideas yet?

----------------
Jim

Trumpets
1940 Conn 22B NY Symphony Special
1952 Olds Ambassador
1967 Olds Ambassador
1962 Holton Galaxy
1950 Olds Special
Cornets
LA Olds Ambassador
Holton New Proportion
Distin
1959 Conn Director
Other
Conn Valve Trombone
Peck Horn


[ This Message was edited by: conn53victor on 2004-04-22 11:58 ]