King Silver Sonic & Silver Tone Cornets - difference?

jhaysom · Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 9:06 am Post subject:

On ebay right now there is a King Silver Sonic cornet and a King Silver Tone cornet. Both are stated to have Sterling Silver bells. Anybody know if this is true and what the difference is between these models?
_________________
John Haysom
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
Yamaha 8310ZS trumpet
Yamaha 6310ZS trumpet
Courtois flugel
1941 King Silvertone cornet
1941 King 2B valve trombone
Kanstul 920 piccolo
etc.

wades · Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:10 am Post subject:

The Silver Sonic is what they started calling the Silvertone, sometime in the '50s I think.

Both are basically the Master Model (King's top-of-the-line hand-tooled artist model) with a sterling bell.

jhatpro · Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:37 am Post subject:

I play a 1963 King Master cornet with a GR66 cornet 3 mp, and it's a great horn: big, rich, mellow sound, fast valves, and a nifty lst valve tuning system that lets you really zero in on pitch. (I've heard the Silver Sonics are even better.)

Jim
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

_PhilPicc · Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:49 am Post subject:

I believe wades is right on the difference. I have been playing silversonics and silvertones since the mid-fifties. Great horns, I'm currently using a 1938 SilverTone for my cornet.

Phil
_________________
Philip Satterthwaite

We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
- Sir Thomas Beecham to a musician during a rehearsal

jhaysom · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:04 am Post subject:

Thanks to all for the input.

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:39 pm Post subject:

Bits&Bytes · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 825

Hello again BeboppinFool;

I'm not sure about that specific model but I can tell you this - after trying a lot of cornets in that era Conns, Olds, King, Bach, Getz... etc.. The most noticeable difference was in finding a great deep mp. A lot of the mp's in that era (in my limited opinion) were not deep enough. Before you pass any judgment on your newest horn give some older (or deep new) mp a whirl.

I initially started with a Curry 7DC with was pretty good (mellow) but switched to a FO which is REALLY dark. I also have a real old Holton which is really rich but harder to handle.

If you are interested in trying them I could ship you the Curry and Holton to see if you like them. I play them only occasionally since the FO so can do without them for a bit...

HTH B&B

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:16 pm Post subject:

Bits&Bytes · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 825

Rich;

Other than the difference in blow (which you seem to have mastered on the trumpet) wouldn't a bright cornet sound pretty much like a trumpet?? To me the cornet blow is so much easier but I doubt that is the reason you would select a cornet over a trumpet. I have a Yamaha mp that brightens my cornet right up to a trumpet. I do that only because I sorta cheat that way... You are much more knowledgeable than me, so I must be missing something here...

B&B

[ This Message was edited by: Bits&Bytes on 2003-02-04 00:11 ]

_PhilPicc · Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:14 pm Post subject:

Hi Rich,

The King Master is a great cornet. I have owned Masters, SilverSonics and SilverTones. Currently When I play cornet I use a 1938 King SilverTone. I went to the ebay site and it is hard to see the condition of the horn. At that price I think you got a steal.

If you want a more brilliant sound use a trumpet based piece. However as B&B said a deep V cup will give you a more traditional sound.

As far as the Olds, Bach and Getzen in the early to mid 30's go on cornets you can get a lot of different opinions. King will be among the top of the list.

Enjoy, you have a very good one,
Phil
_________________
Philip Satterthwaite

We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
- Sir Thomas Beecham to a musician during a rehearsal

_PhilPicc · Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:20 pm Post subject:

Hey B&B, Why do you want to make your cornet sound like a trumpet?

Just curious,
Phil

By the way I love your humor and insight.
_________________
Philip Satterthwaite

We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
- Sir Thomas Beecham to a musician during a rehearsal

Bits&Bytes · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 825

Hello Phil;

Ok, we're friends right?? So, what I have to say stays between us right?? Nobody else needs to know this...

For me a cornet is so much easier to play - I sound better, last longer and have so much better range on a cornet. The blow has a lot less resistance (for me the holy grail). While most of my playing is more traditional cornet dark sounding occasionally a tune comes along that is best played with a more bright and marching feel. With the Yamaha mp I can do this with the same "feel". It's lame I know... but if you tell anybody I let it be known that you ordered two special hot pink lava lamps, and you complain sometimes that your G-String gets too tight.

Mums the word, B&B

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:07 pm Post subject:

I guess I'm preferring cornet because I like the way it feels to play the instrument. I always strive for the purest sound I can get, regardless of whether I'm playing trumpet, bass trumpet, or cornet, so whatever it sounds like out front is pretty much secondary to the way it feels.

I also find that ease of flexibility and dynamics (not to mention ease of playing in the low register) are more pronounced on cornet than on trumpet.

I'm so glad to hear that I got a steal on this axe. I'm hoping that the repair job isn't too drastic and that some TarniShield and a good cleaning will take care of the most glaring deficiencies. Judging by the serial number, this looks to be around a 1937-38 vintage. I also hope that was a good year!

Harking back to my point about the early American cornetists, and James Klages talked about this a lot in our unofficial Cornet Forum in the Lounge, I don't see anything wrong with wanting to be capable of possessing the capacity for a powerful, cutting cornet sound.

This past Saturday I took my cornet instead of a flugelhorn (I have a 1960 Boosey & Hawkes Regent that's a nice player) and played in a big band in the main lobby of the Grove Park Inn here in Asheville. Well, it's a boomy room, and the drummer was playing too loud, and even though I had a "flugelhorn" solo, there's no way that I would've been heard on this one tune if I had played with a wimpy, dark, all-resonance type of cornet (or flugelhorn) sound. I pretty much had to pierce right through about 200 db of white noise to be heard, and I'm glad I was able to do that without hurting myself on this cornet.

That's my reasoning for wanting a bright sound, and I'm glad that it comes easily for me.

Goodnight, boys and girls.

Rich
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Puttin’ On The Ritz

wades · Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:23 am Post subject:

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:06 pm Post subject:

Well, I got my King Master cornet back from John Lynch today, and I've gotta tell you folks, this is one fantastic horn! I've been playing it all afternoon and evening and I'm really psyched.

The work on it was a little more involved than I first thought, and John did strictly what was necessary to make it play as well as possible. He recommended waiting until I decided that it's THE horn I want to play before I get the cosmetic work done. It looks pretty good like it is . . . I may want to get it replated, I don't know . . . it's a beautiful horn with all that engraving.

I looked at the Lars Kirsmer serial numbers again, and I see that it's actually from 1932-33.

Anyway, I've now got just under $200 in this instrument, and I can't believe the bang I got for my buck! I guess every once in awhile it pays to take a risk, eh?

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 8:53 am Post subject:

I played my King Master cornet in a show last weekend, using it on one chart where there was only one trumpet part (a sextet arrangement behind the singer), and on two "flugelhorn solo" parts. Nobody complained, and the music director and the "big act" seemed to think it sounded just fine.

What a great little horn! I wish there was a way to get a third valve slide manipulation ring or a first valve slide saddle on there . . . does anyone have any suggestions for such modifications on these old horns that were apparently designed to never have such devices?

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject:

I went back and looked up this post to say that I sent the above-mentioned King Master to John to get him to "do it up" and I just got it back today.

The finish is now a satin silver finish except on the engraving where the silver shines through. The inside of the bell is now also silver plated, as is the outer rim of the bell. The valve buttons/caps/stems, the bottom valve caps, the water key, and the thumb saddle are now all gold plated.

And the best news is that the horn plays fantastically. Now I'm up to about $500 into this horn, but since I want to keep it as a player that doesn't matter.

I know there are lots of guys who do great work on horns, and I'm mostly letting you know that John Lynch (of Nokomis, FL) is one of the best and most reasonable guys I send my horns to.

Goodnight, boys and girls!

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

_PhilPicc · Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:28 am Post subject:

Hi Rich, Would love to see a picture of the finished product if possible.

Enjoy your King, I still play my 1938 SilverTone almost everyday.
Phil
_________________
Philip Satterthwaite

We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
- Sir Thomas Beecham to a musician during a rehearsal

jhaysom · Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:38 pm Post subject:

I'll echo what Phil says.

I got my 1941 Silvertone last summer. It didn't look like much but I boiled the lacquer off it and polished it up then had Ron Partch do some dent removal and straightening and a precision valve alignment. I started to enjoy it when Ron was finished but the valves springs were kinda weak and Ron didn't have any that would fit it so, unless I oiled them religiously every day, I could never have confidence in the valves. I recently bought some valve springs from the fellow who advertises cleaning jobs on ebay and that solved that problem - the valves are great. Now the Silvertone is the first horn I pick up. My Yamaha 6310Z mostly hangs on its hook.

Like Rich, I just love the feel of the horn but I also find it to be very responsive and I like the sound. I first used a Schilke 11E mouthpiece, wihch is fairly deep and supposed to give "that traditional dark cornet sound." I didn't find that it was especially dark and I found it was limiting my range so I switched to a regular Schilke 11 mouthpiece and that solved the range problem (or at least it is no more limited that usual). Like Rich, I find the tone to be on the bright side -- much more so than my 6310Z for example. But I don't mind. If I want to sound "dark," I'll play my flugel.

So now two of my favourite horns are Kings - the Silvertone cornet and my King 2B valve trombone - that began life in 1941, the same year as me.
_________________
John Haysom
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
Yamaha 8310ZS trumpet
Yamaha 6310ZS trumpet
Courtois flugel
1941 King Silvertone cornet
1941 King 2B valve trombone
Kanstul 920 piccolo
etc.

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject:

Okay, here are 4 pictures, and I'll post them one at a time. The pictures don't really do John's work justice, but they'll give you an idea.

I only wish I had taken "before" pictures so you could see how great this looks!

Here's my 1932(3?) H.N. White King Master cornet:

Rich
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Puttin’ On The Ritz