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Robert Rowe
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 5364
Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Oh -- one more thing ....
This is for Thiel, the topic post-author.
Your terminology, "purists", is waaaaayy out of line, bud. This is just plain and simple, "The Right Thing" (to do).
Make a note of that, will you?
Yogi Robt |
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Ohanapecosh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 2133
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Robert, are you so full of yourself that you can't begin to see the grammatical and spelling errors in your own post? Try a new rant dude, you've worn this one thin with your own inability to use the spelling/grammar checker in Word. By the way, everything you want to emphasize doesn't need to be in quotations... give it a rest already and go polish some more turds, something you seem to be good at.
in other words, go bump yourself!!! (sentence emphasized with non-caps)
LCD |
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swthiel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 3967
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I have not suggested that the use of clear, correct, standard English is not preferable to the incorrect and/or non-standard writing we see here at times.
I have also not suggested that one's writing must be perfect when posting here. I did suggest that those who wish to establish themselves as arbiters of proper usage ought to use correct grammar, standard spellings, standard punctuation, clear antecedents to pronouns, and so forth.
| Tom LeCompte wrote: | Steve-
I read your post, and stand somewhat chastised, but nonetheless, think there is a distinction that needs to be drawn between a mistake and an attitude. We all make mistakes - or at least I do - and I would agree that it's rude to correct them.
However, some of our younger members also have stated that it's okay for them to use unorthodox spelling, diction, punctuation and grammar because the readers can eventually figure out what was meant. Some have even said they are deliberately writing that way. I was taught that the reason we strive to write correctly is because it shows respect for our audiences. The extra minute I didn't spend means hundreds of readers have to spend that minute themselves, and my time is not hundreds of times more valuable than my readers' time. |
As I pointed out elsewhere,, there are downsides to using nonstandard or incorrect English: | swthiel wrote: | First, the more traditional readers are going to be distracted by non-standard capitalization and spelling.
Second, a portion of your audience may not understand what you’re trying to say if you use too many abbreviations.
Third, a portion of your audience is going to consider your thoughts, and possibly you, less worthy of consideration based on how you choose to express yourself. That might not be fair, but it is reality.
Thus, my recommendation to you is to limit the amount of Netspeak you use – standard spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and grammar are likely to get you a better result if you’re looking for information or discussion. |
If a post is so poorly written that it's not worth your time to read, there's nothing wrong with ignoring it. (I mean in this in the standard sense of ignoring a post, not the TH Lounge sense.) There's also nothing wrong with dropping a polite PM to the poster suggesting that they might get more or better responses if they did some judicious editing.
| Tom LeCompte wrote: | I also think it's not entirely off-topic. There is very little difference between "the audience should be able to figure out what I meant, even though I misspelled words and didn't use punctuation" and "the audience should be able to figure out what I meant even though I played E's instead of F's and didn't follow the tempo markings or dynamics".
Tom |
I judge on-topic vs. off-topic in the context of the thread; this might be a different standard than you're using. In the thread that prompted me to start this thread, the original poster had what I thought was a good question about recital ettiquette. He got a few responses to his question; the balance of the thread ended up being irrelevant to the question he had. Several of the respondents are posters I hold in high regard, and I was a bit disappointed not to read their responses to the original question. (I suppose the bright side is that I know what they think about writing.) The original poster ended up hurt and angry, but not necessarily enlightened; instead, our behavior reinforced his teacher's suggestion that he avoid forums like TH.
On the other hand, it is fair to ask if some people play as sloppily as they write. It's an interesting enough question to deserve a thread of its own, along, perhaps, with the question of how one's playing style, writing style, and speaking style compare.
| Robert Rowe wrote: | <Quote from LittleRusty deleted>
A matter of semantics. Whichever way you prefer.
Something that has bothered me about this entire premise, as presented by the author of the post-topic ....
I am the one that identified the sloppy spelling, sentence syntax, absence of capitals and punctuation, and-so-on, as the "dumbing down of America".
If this is tolerated, those that allow it are deemed "enablers".
Another example of why our enemies make fun of us ....
Who's got your back?
Yogi Robt  |
My main premise is that publicly correcting the posts of others is often considered rude and is often counterproductive. You have produced no evidence of any sort that invalidates these premises.
You post addresses another point I made, that nonstandard English in Internet forums will be with us for a while. Your point seems to be that if you don't "take a stand" that "our enemies" (whoever you mean by that) will "make fun of us" ... or that some other tragedy will overtake us ... or ... or ... something. Interestingly enough, in another thread, TrpPro helpfully posted a link to an article about research done concering that very subject. From early in the article: | Quote: | Dr. Crystal concludes that the Internet is not going to spawn a generation of illiterates, as a cursory look at any undergraduate's e-mail might suggest. On the contrary, he contends, it is developing into a splendid new medium that shows language users at their most inventive, adapting a variety of styles for a variety of purposes, some formal, some highly informal.
"The Internet is Homo loquens at its best," Dr. Crystal said. "It shows language expanding richly in all sorts of directions."
Dr. Crystal shifted from abbreviations like op. cit. and et alia to RUOK? (Are you O.K.?), CUL8R (See you later) and the expanding world of electronic text, and found in them not the death of English grammar and spelling as we know it, but the irresistible development of a new, powerful force. "A whole new medium of communication does not arrive very often in the history of the race," he said.
True, the language of the Internet includes the ragtag discourse of smiley faces, goofy abbreviations and laissez-faire spelling, punctuation and syntax, he acknowledged. But if you focus on things like the absence of capitalization, you will miss the big picture.
"The Internet is a genuine third medium of communication," Dr. Crystal said. "In the future it will probably be the main way we humans communicate." |
This article is consistent with my professional experience.
| Robert Rowe wrote: | | Your terminology, "purists", is waaaaayy out of line, bud. This is just plain and simple, "The Right Thing" (to do). |
We disagree. I'll live.
_________________
Steve Thiel |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert Rowe wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | Ah, then to be correct you should have said the main portion of the keyboard.
My keyboard is nothing like you describe, indeed many laptop keyboards aren't.
However, my secondary keyboard is like the one you describe. |
A matter of semantics. Whichever way you prefer.
Something that has bothered me about this entire premise, as presented by the author of the post-topic ....
I am the one that identified the sloppy spelling, sentence syntax, absence of capitals and punctuation, and-so-on, as the "dumbing down of America".
If this is tolerated, those that allow it are deemed "enablers".
Another example of why our enemies make fun of us ....
Who's got your back?
Yogi Robt |
I am not your enemy. I find your corrective posts amusing. Don Quixote away.
As to the topic at hand, I am a little lazy when it comes to reading. If I have to spend time deciphering the post I won't bother reading it.
If the post is one monolithic block of text I will seldom read it.
This has nothing to do with respect, or lack thereof, to the poster. |
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PiCK Kanstul
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 704
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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I understand a couple of points that you were trying to make, Steve. I am not in total disagreement. My main point is that I find it annoying when people don’t make an effort to post something that I can read fairly quickly. It’s not that hard. This is not a chat room, we are not texting. It doesn’t have to be perfect.
This post is readable. “good point. Im just in a quagmire i have these 2 pieces i love that id like to perform. I hate to brag but i sorta am one of his more advanced students he has. I take my trumpet playing very seriously. I just dont wanna feel like this is a recital for Alex Gerhard rather than for my teachers students.”
This one is ridiculous. “am definatly gunna play the Ewazen Trumpet sonata (mvt I). Hejre Kati arranged bye mendez, and ive always been working on the Arbans Carnival of Venice. Way i see it the Ewazen would exemplify tone, flexibility and lyrical work. Hejre Kati the first half does lyrical then technical. And then Venice shows my technical ability.”
Not to mention, was it two mush bran powre too use the rite form of “TOO” in a post Title?
-------------------------------------------------
Steve, you chose to quote some portions of the referenced article, which was worth reading btw - here are a couple points I noted and I get this>>
Dr. Crystal concludes that the Internet is not going to spawn a generation of illiterates, as a cursory look at any undergraduate's e-mail might suggest. On the contrary, he contends, it is developing into a splendid new medium that shows language users at their most inventive, adapting a variety of styles for a variety of purposes, some formal, some highly informal.
…..
the unbuttoned language of chat rooms -- ''the nearest we are likely to get to seeing writing in its spontaneous, unedited, naked state,'' he wrote.
….
He predicts that there will be as many ways to communicate on the Internet as there are people and circumstances. ''If I leave out the punctuation in an e-mail, you don't say, 'Crystal doesn't know his grammar.' You say, 'Crystal's in a hurry.' '' Similarly, people looking for a job will construct their e-mail quite differently than they would if chatting with friends.
….
''There are so many purists out there,'' he said. ''They think language should be used by a fixed set of rules -- always their rules.''
….
It is this hybrid of speech and writing that Dr. Crystal analyzes, unworried that English will be ruined by its often casual treatment. On the contrary, he argues, children who spend their day sending instant messages are in no danger of becoming illiterates. ''Children know that you use crazy, geeky language on e-mail and on mobile phones, and then they are sensible when they are writing for the teachers,'' he said.
….
However, if this is what I commonly found on TH, I wouldn’t have it bookmarked, because I CAN’T EASILY READ >>
……… punctuation-bereft, rambling text.
finally I believe we just played out the point he makes in the quote below. I think a number of us were more or less trying to say that careless writing style was NOT WORKING FOR US
…. Dr. Crystal predicted that many language conventions would evolve naturally. ''We'll learn gradually what works and what doesn't, just as we've already learned that if we type out a whole sentence in capital letters, it upsets people,'' he said. |
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Glissando
Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 245
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: Re: A Note to the Spelling and Grammar Purists |
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| swthiel wrote: | | First, such corrections are rarely on-topic, especially in the context of a trumpet forum. Spelling and grammar corrections and comments are interruptions of an ongoing dialogue. |
Steve's first point speaks to getting off the topic of trumpet/music and into a realm where people may be correcting one another's typos (don't we all make those from time to time?), mistakes in knowledge of grammar/spelling (who's perfect at all things in life?), and/or intentional colloquial usage (something new and creative, if not always appreciated as such).
Such posts can be well-intended but they can derail the thread and render it useless thereafter. It's clearly counterproductive when a thread turns from trumpet to nit-picking. |
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Robert Rowe
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 5364
Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:02 am Post subject: |
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I suspect the "culprits" (those resorting to sloppy syntax, grammatical errors, lack of punctuation, etc.) ... and more so, those that defend it, are probably the ones here on TrumpetHerald that make the fewest horn-related contributions.
What I am endeavoring to point-out, is that we peruse the forums, in the interest of learning something, or providing others with information we may have gleaned through our personal experience.
I researched this, and confirmed my suspicions by clicking on the "read all posts" by certain TH'ers, in their profiles. Very rarely is found anything substantive, relative to trumpets (or other horns), or trumpet-playing. Don't take my word for it -- examine the posts yourself.
I suspect they lurk in "The Lounge" forum, or here in "Reveille", for example. A few tend to almost always post sports-related comments.
Recently, I engaged in a friendly telephone conversation with a very prominent TH'er. The subject of obviously young posters distracting from real horn-related topics, with immature comments and silly statements arose. One ... that uses a goofy screen-name, was judged to be no older than high-school age. I was astounded to learn (in his profile) he was "retired"! Retired from what ... elementary school? Amazing. (A thinly-veiled hint).
Ask yourself -- what can I do to contribute to this website?
Yogi Robt
_________________
~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Ohanapecosh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 2133
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Hey! I have one of those goofy names (according to you Robt), unfortunately I'm not retired.
Which is more constructive to TH, the person who limits their posts because they recognize their limited knowledge or the constant inane posts from people trying prop themselves as experts? This place is deluged with fool hardy post about trumpets. It's not uncommon to see people (kids in high school?) argue with players who make a living at the trumpet. For you to suggest that I or anyone else shouldn't be here because of our limited trumpet post is arrogant. If you would like a cause, go after the trumpet players that are knowingly adding inappropriate, inaccurate and immature advice about trumpets, THAT in itself would make TH a stronger forum. How is it that an ocassional post about sports (name your non-trumpet related thread) a detriment to this site?
| Quote: | | I was astounded to learn (in his profile) he was "retired"! Retired from what ... elementary school? Amazing. (A thinly-veiled hint). |
Should we start parsing your own unique style of writing? Would others be able to judge your level of education from your post Robt? I'm not surprised you would stoop to this level to defend your position though.
No one is going to argue that a well constructed sentence is much easier to read than one that is not. We adjust our speech to accommodate the situation, don't we? Some people are very accustomed to using net speak, others, like teachers expect a higher level of skills, whether it's in their own post or the writing of others. Are either of them right or wrong in a forum? Where people feel comfortable enough with one another that we consider most friends, the way we communicate with one another will be adjusted. I don't communicate with my friends the way I do in a business meeting, should things be so formal here?
Quite frankly, I hate it when someone lacks punctuation or simply makes no effort at spelling. I don't point it out, I just move on and ignore the post.
Now I need to go back to being an expert... where's my trapeze?
LCD |
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Robert Rowe
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 5364
Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Yo, Ohanapecosh --
I just did a little research into your posts .... I went back to around November, 2004 ... ten (10) pages, with anywhere between 10 (ten) and 20 (twenty) posts per page.
I'll give you credit for the 4 (four) horn-related posts you made. Generally, anywhere from 6-months to 18-months between same.
The rest are in "The Lounge" and "Reveille". Some deep-stuff here ....
Now I know the "go-to Guy" if I want to know anything about The Bullwinkle Show, Johnny Quest, The Road Runner, the Super Bowl, sports Fantasy Leagues, Monty Python, Winnie-the-Pooh, Mr. Magoo, and all kinds of ball-game scores.
I'll be sure to make a note of it ... (right!  ).
*** yawn *** (no moticom available for this, sadly)
Yogi Robt
_________________
~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9372
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Rowe wrote: | | Yo, Ohanapecosh --Now I know the "go-to Guy" if I want to know anything about The Bullwinkle Show,.... |
Hey, I want to get in on some of that Bullwinkle stuff.......
And Rocky stuff, too....
Whatsamatta U.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Ohanapecosh
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Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 2133
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Do I have to type slower for you to understand my position on trumpet related post Robt? I've made my lack of post about trumpets no secret.
You on the other hand have entirely ignored some basic questions I have directed to you. I guess if I didn't have a reasonable answer I'd try to deflect the question too. By the way, did you have to stop at 10 because you didn't want to take your shoes off?
In the very least I'm not trying to BS anyone here...
"ON BELAY!" or how would a polisher say it? "ON TRAPEZE!"
LCD |
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westview1900
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 1617
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone demonstrated a correlation between good grammar and good musicianship?
_________________
Carpe Diem
and Plan for Tomorrow
Pat Paulsen for president
http://www.paulsen.com/
Stephen Colbert for president |
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dales
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 521
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dunno. I'm a better writer than musician. |
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Tom LeCompte
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 3341
Location: Naperville, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| westview1900 wrote: | | Has anyone demonstrated a correlation between good grammar and good musicianship? |
Look at the people who make a living at trumpet here: Manny, Mike Vax, Wilmer, the occassional post by John Hagstrom, and I am sure there are others. Do any of them take a special pride in writing like a doofus? I think not.
In any event, I'd like to again draw the distinction between people who make a mistake, and people who think that the onus of figuring out what they meant to say is on the reader. |
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Ohanapecosh
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Joined: 17 Dec 2002
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Has anyone demonstrated a correlation between good grammar and good musicianship? |
Interesting question westview, sorry I don't have a direct answer to the question. My wife graduated Summa Cum Laude from Washington State University with a Bachelor of Science degree in Nursing. She is an extremely intelligent woman and yet is a horrific speller. Her older brother's IQ is off the chart too and yet has to spell check everything. He was a writer at one time and his grammar and spelling never improved. He was a terrific writer though. I guess what I'm saying is spelling and grammar aren't necessarily tied to intellect. I think intelligence makes most things easier though. Maybe the discipline of learning good grammar would be the same skills used in learning music. It's still a good question.
Everyone is unique, some may be great musicians, some understand the nuances of written English, some have the ability to learn multiple languages with ease, yet a lot of cases these same people do poorly at other skills. I guess it's why I have such a hard time being dogmatic about grammar and spelling on a forum. I really think it's what makes this world such a great place and why we all need each other. For me, I may not be a great musician but I do understand when someone makes great music.
| Quote: | | In any event, I'd like to again draw the distinction between people who make a mistake, and people who think that the onus of figuring out what they meant to say is on the reader. |
Agreed and some are not capable of making that distinction. |
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westview1900
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Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 1617
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I asked the above question because it is my experience that in many cases good grammar and musicianship go hand in hand, but this is not always so. I bring up the example of the jazz musician, Django Reinhardt who was barely literate even in his native tongue. This does not take away anything from his brilliant musicianship and if someone were to judge his musical skills from his ability to write, they would be underestimating him. Other examples include Erroll Garner and Wes Montgomery who could not even read music yet are considered to be jazz virtuosos. My point is that even though someone may not be able to write clearly, they may still have valid points to make within the parameters of a trumpet forum, and they may be able to converse well enough to progress in the field of music.
_________________
Carpe Diem
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Pat Paulsen for president
http://www.paulsen.com/
Stephen Colbert for president |
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Robert Rowe
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 5364
Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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One can learn, correct?
Yogi Robt
_________________
~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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sherwood
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 20
Location: U.K
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| when "embouchure " and "thoery " are mangled one has to wonder . methinks little of this , however , since i do believe in a definite match between language skills and musicianship . think about it : what are you defending and what are you backing ? if any of these forums are 'way too hard for you to understand there is a very simple solution . u cud 'ways hed ovr t sompun els . and , how about a prize for mr.thoery ?gud lck ! him bad . can you spell english ? if so , are you able to read and write and understand it ? or do you live in an SMS world , inhabited by neanderthals ? srry t 'fend frnd . but it will all play out in da end . |
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Ohanapecosh
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Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 2133
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One can learn, correct? |
Robt, you've badgered people about spelling, grammar and net speak before. In all seriousness, why would anyone acknowledge what you have to say when your own post are filled with improper usage of quotation marks and often misspelled words due to the misuse of hyphens? What's the difference between what you do and what you are asking others not to do? You have a very unique style of writing on this forum, it's not proper but we all get your drift. Why do you feel that everyone has to conform to what you want, whether its spelling or multiple posts about trumpets? |
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sherwood
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 20
Location: U.K
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| damn , i meant to type " embrochure " . |
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