Does the Pivot System work for legit playing?

[RhythmDoctor]

I'm new here, but nevertheless I'll shake things up a bit. I'm looking for your opinions on the appropriateness of Doc's Pivot System for "legit" playing. Doc was famous for coaching fine lead players, but do you think his concept of sound (and playing equipment) could fit in an orchestral style? Are there any top-tier orchestra players that used his method without some major modifications? (At the time I studied with him, I was too young and naive to recognize any orchestral players he may have mentioned to me.)

Here's the reason for my questions:

I studied with Doc as a Junior-Senior in high school. I grew up in the DC suburbs studying with some GREAT military players (Chuck Erwin - solo cornet in Marine Band, Dave Detwiler - lead/jazz trumpet with Army Blues and sometimes with Airmen of Note). But by my junior year of HS it was pretty clear I needed some major chop work that these natural players weren't equipped to help me with. I had a decent sound and good technique, but NO endurance. So I started monthly trips up to Philly to study with Doc. He did wonders for me from the very start. He quickly diagnosed my "flabby chops," and started me on his exercises, which helped me greatly. However, about halfway through my senior year, I was severely criticized by adjudicators from the University of Maryland (Emerson Head and Charles Gallagher) during band and solo competitions. After listening to myself on tape, I agreed that my sound was too bright. Mr. Head's criticisms did not strike me as particularly constructive, but Mr. Gallagher (a true gentleman with a heart of gold) always seemed to have helpful ideas. So I left Doc for awhile and started lessons with Mr. Gallagher. He was very receptive to Doc's concepts, but disagreed with his equipment choices. I found that if I used larger equipment (yes, even a Vincent Bach toilet bowl mouthpiece! ), I could get a more resonant tone without resorting to the flabby chops that so many community orchestra players use. (I still run into guys like this all the time - they seem to need 200 bars rest for every 20 that they play.) By combining Gallagher's and Reinhardt's teachings (plus a few concepts that Chuck Erwin and Chris Gekker gave me), I have the basic package that works for my combination of church, brass quintet, and lead playing in a dance band (for which I don't need to go over an E).

When I look back on it, Doc was taking me toward constantly higher and brighter playing. Had I switched to the 6a4a he suggested (as my first step before he took me EVEN SMALLER), I'd probably be playing dubba C's today, but I also feel like I'd be virtually unable to get hired for anything besides big band work. And you know how much of that there is these days!

OK, so that last paragraph was an exaggeration, but my basic question is this: Do Doc's methods work (without modification) for "legit" playing, or do they need to be modified? Are there any great orchestra players that point to Doc as their PRIMARY influence on their brass playing? If so, who are they?

Thanks,

Rick Sonntag http://RickSonntag.com
Swarthmore, PA
Rhythm Doctors Big Band http://RhythmDoctors.org
Broad Street Brass http://BroadStreetBrass.com

PS - Why is the SuperChops forum a PRIVATE area? Are they so thin skinned that they can't listen to all of us exposing JC's quackery? :lol:

[ This Message was edited by: RhythmDoctor on 2003-02-09 19:47 ]

[kzem]

Ok, I hate to jump in on something of which I am not an authority on, but I remember hearing a story that there were a bunch of players going to see Doc "secretly". I believe they were mostly players in the legit field, fearing they would lose credibility of some sort by taking lessons from a "Chop Doctor." I can't remember where I heard or read about this, can anyone else comment on it?
I believe Doc's method of teaching was applicable to all brass players, regardless of style.

-Kurt Z

[BeboppinFool]

Absolutely, "legit" players went to Doc in droves. If he was of the opinion that you were gearing yourself for a symphonic career, he guided you in that direction. Conversely, if he knew you had commercial aspirations, he would guide you accordingly.

By the way, Rick, we're not "dubba bubbas" here and I believe that's the first time I've seen that juvenile term (thanks to the controversial and not-so-easy-to-love TasteeBros) on the Reinhardt Forum.

My girlfriend (back in '80) went to a Teachers Clinic and there was a trumpet player there who was principal in the NY Phil at the time . . . I think his name was Joe, ring any bells?

It amazes me, the egos of guys who won't admit that they had to get help with their chops (getting back to what Kurt was saying) . . . but Doc always told me that if I ever felt like I was having some kind of chop problem on the gig and needed to pass parts or move down to 2nd or 3rd, to just say that I have a pain in my side. That way you'd get the dogs off your trail. And what a bunch of dawgs they are!

And today I don't really care to hear the brilliance expounded from a guy who never had to rebuild his chops. Maybe that's because I've had to rebuild mine two or three times, now. But the "natural" players really don't get it . . . they don't have a clue and unknowingly are responsible for much of the misinformation we can read about in pretty much every other forum.

I'm very proud to claim my association with the greatest "chop doctor" of all time, the late Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt. He taught me how to build real chops, and he also taught me how to teach others the same thing.

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[RhythmDoctor]

[airdyn]

This if for Rick.
Although I don't want to get into a "list of legit players that studied with Doc"...I will state, however, that Doc always, yes ALWAYS, preferred to teach the commercial players...they were more open minded and "free spirited". Trumpet-trombone-French Horn- Tuba alike...if you asked Doc to play a certain way, he could show you how.
In regards to your "brilliance" that turned off academia, regardless of equipment ( mouthpiece size, instrument size or physical type) there are many ways to increase resonance and reduce brilliance. The type IV is a good example...having an "inherent" penchant for brilliance and "nasalness", the Type IV must work on increasing resonance. Directing the airstream, practicing Legato Tongue studies(Concone), avoiding too much flexibility playing, warming up with the Legato SpiderWeb, playing with "a mouthful of air" ( this does not mean cheek puffing), ... these are just a few suggestions without changing equipment...
Were you a type IV? Did you ask Doc to increase your resonance? Doc always said that for those college professors, "give them what they want to hear", to get that degree, or pass that course.
On Doc's handout sheet, THREE BASIC STEPS FOR HIGH REGISTER DEVELOPMENT (sub titled "What is a good sound?" that has a tape to accompanying it), find the "CORE" of your sound and starting from there, develop either brilliance or resonance, or a perfect balance of the two, I always loved when Doc would say that each and every one of us has our own sound, or our "core", and it is like a fingerprint, no two exactly alike.Doc "never forgot a sound" or "the chop set-up) even though he may have forgotten your name!

Good post, Rick. Thanks for asking.
Dave

[Lee Adams]

>>>PS - Why is the SuperChops forum a PRIVATE area? Are they so thin skinned that they can't listen to all of us exposing JC's quackery?<<<


The SC Forum is not really private at all that's just the term that the php board uses to name a forum where stricter registration controls are used.
Due to my wasting dozens of hours deleting profanities, and jokester posts I was forced to tighten up the registration criteria. At the time of the private forum activation there was no authentication going on for users and the trolls as you could imagine were not decent enough to identify any details about who they were.
So I took it into my own hands to handle registration authentication. The problem became so big that later even the SA had to implement improved authentication for registration on this entire website.
After doing this I have had no troll attacks in the SC Forum. However some snipers still take shots at SC from other forums other than coming and asking civil questions if they are interested. I don't and have never tolerated unsubstantiated attack on other systems or people in the SC Forum and continue to strive for a quality environment for those interested in a system that has proven to help many players over the years.


Please give me all of the details on how JC's quakery has been exposed if you are refering within the context of SC but not here. In fact please go and make a thread in the debating forum and back up all of your premises scientifically with unrefutable evidence concerning exposing any quackery of SC. I will go head to head with you in that arena within the context of SC.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 404-316-4072

Lee Adams

[histrumpet]

Rhythm Doc

Before you go much further you should read "Another question" posted by DSR and responded to by Hairy James (now Mr. Hollywood?) He seems to be a knowledgeable student of the Pivot System and can probably clear up any questions as to the validity of Jerry Callets method. After reading his comments I don't think the term "Quackery" can be used to describe Jerry or his methods.

Bruce

To make it easier for you that thread is currently on page 3 of this dedicated forum. I also noticed on your web site that you listed The Buddy Rich Big Band as one you like. You may also like to know that Jeff Lambardino who I think was his leader player until recently uses the Super Chops embouchure.

[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2003-02-11 22:45 ]

[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2003-02-11 23:04 ]

[BeboppinFool]

Thanks Bruce and Lee, I think Rick has now been properly chastised.

Maybe we can get back to Reinhardt here on the Donald S. Reinhardt forum.

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[histrumpet]

Yeah you're right.

[Mr.Hollywood]

I just went back to read my post under " Another Question ".
That whole story is true.
Although I am a die hard Reinhardt student, I can't bring myself to call Jerry Callet a "quack" anymore than I would call Claude Gordon, or Carmine Caruso a "quack".
I have studied the Pivot System for over 25 years and it still bugs the hell out of me when someone calls Reinhardt a "quack".
Let us not forget that there are many roads to Rome. In my career I have seen good players breaking all kinds of "Reinhardt rules". Now how long they can get away with breaking them, AND if they have other "holes" in their playing is another story.
I truly believe that the Pivot System is the best approach for all around complete brass playing and for longevity as a player. But you have to be aware of the fact that there are other good players out there using other methods.

Chris

[histrumpet]

I could not agree more.

Bruce

[bgibson]

Trying to get back to the original topic,
Dave's post is 100% correct.
To answer Rick's question, there were many "legit" players that studied with Doc. (the list of these players is amazing)
Many of them did study with him "on the sly".
Doc said, "dark does not always mean symphonic".
The sheet that Doc made on "What Is A Good Sound" is terrific.
I remember a quote of Doc's from the 1980's:
"The study of the Pivot System is not hazardous to your jazz conception"
This was based on someone who saw Doc and said that his material interfered with his jazz conception.
Anyone else remember this story?
So there were close-minded people in both the commercial and the legit fields.
I tried to answer the question as to why some people did not state that they studied with Doc on my video tape that was shown at the reunion.
There were more commercial players studying with Doc because of the demands for endurance and an increase in range on trumpet and trombone in the Swing Era.
Doc's teaching was for all brass players regardless of what style they played.
You had to walk into his studio with an open mind and do what he assigned you.
Anyone recall the hard work and sweat quote???????????????????????
WEG

[RhythmDoctor]

Yes, my nose is feeling a bit blooded. But perhaps I deserve it.

My comment about SuperChops was off-topic, but there is a Reinhardt connection, though it's a bit of a stretch (see end of message below).

First, my "quackery" comment was meant to be ENTIRELY tongue-in-cheek. Note that I offered NOTHING to back up my comment - to do so would have made it more serious than I intended it.

I deeply regret that you guys get attacked so severely that you had to invoke added security measures for your forum. No wonder you didn't share my humor. My feeling is that if it works for you and others, that's great. The few SuperChops concepts I know seem to differ from much of what I have been taught (by Reinhardt and others), but I am the first to admit that I do not know enough to judge. Perhaps someday I'll request admission to your forum so I can learn more. If so, I promise to behave.

I was fortunate to have studied with Reinhardt. Others here knew him much better than I did - I was just a high school kid at the time. But my memory is of a feisty guy who seemed to enjoy stirring things up. Calling Vincent Bach's mouthpieces "toilet bowls" (to his face, as the legend goes) is just one example of how he seemed to revel in controversy.

So it was in this spirit of the ever-feisty Doc Reinhardt that I offered my "quackery" comment. Please try to take it with the humor that it was intended. If you are unable to do that, please accept my apologies.

Meanwhile, play on!

-- Rick

[Wilktone]

Hi, Rick. Welcome to the Reinhardt Forum. I'm glad you chose to join us.

While I find it interesting to compare and contrast different embouchure "systems," we do try to stick to the Pivot System here. Not, I think, because we're not interested. Rather, I think, it's because we understand that Donald Reinhardt's teachings are so misunderstood because too many people who don't fully understand the Pivot System are giving out misinformation. Instead of doing that with another teacher's approach, we're more devoted to understanding the Pivot System only here.

At any rate, I should get back on topic and let sleeping dogs lie.

I have just spent about 20 minutes looking through some of my materials at home, but can't find this story. Maybe I heard it on one of Doc's orientation tapes?

As I understand, Doc would often ask his student to play a particular way for a while not because this was the way this player would play best, but because he wanted to guide the student's attention differently. For example, Dave Sheetz's article on the PivoTalk web site, "The Pivot In Relation to:The Jaw and Angular Horn Movement," states:

[Mr.Hollywood]

What Doc was trying to do with the jaw was to "whittle in" the legs.
He would have you play with the horn angle up for a while, then lower it, then raise it, then lower it again. All the while it was never going as low or as high as the time before, so without the student even knowing it they where finding their "legs".

As far as sound goes, I'm going to quote Doc directly; "If a trumpet doesn't sizzle like it sizzles in Mexico City......Then it's not a trumpet!"


Chris

[RhythmDoctor]

[bgibson]

Rick;
A variation on my earlier post:
Just because it is bright sounding does not mean it is a good commercial sound.
Doc wanted his students to have a good core to their sound.
Commercial sound would favor "North of the Equator".
Legit sound would favor "South of the Equator".

For Dave W.
You might want to read BB McCollough's (sp?) interview in the ITA journal ca.1987.
I believe you will enjoy it.
WEG

[Mr.Hollywood]

Dr.Rhythm,

It might clear things up a bit if I explain when and why Doc said that to me.

First off I am a 100% commercial trumpet player. If you gave me a 'C' trumpet I would have to make a lamp out of it. (if you want to hear me play, go to Warburton's web site).

When I first saw Doc I was playing on a Bach 10.5-C. Doc thought that it was too deep to play lead on, so he switched me to a Schilke 13A4A. I liked the 13A4A, but I felt it was a little too tight in the upper register for me.

On my next lesson I took it upon myself to change to a 13A4C. The larger backbore seemed to open the high register for me. Well when Doc saw it, he was a little upset because he said he "Didn't like tubby mouthpieces". He felt that the Schilke 'C' backbore made the mouthpiece sound too dark and "tubby".

And thats when he made the remark about a trumpet sizzling in Mexico City.

So you see it was all about me being a commercial type trumpet player. Had I been a legit player playing on a larger mouthpiece I'm sure he would have never said that.

But it is my opinion that the modern legit sound has gotten way too dark. While the modern lead sound has gotten way too thin.

Chris

[O-Ring]

no

[LeeC]

Last nite I posted a note on the Doc Rheinhart page that couldn't possibly have been regarded as controversial and yet it was deleted today. I may as well go ahead and try it here again tonite and see how it goes. Hopefully some will find it helpful:

About five years ago I had to lay off the horn for a few weeks due a throat injury related to my high note neck puff. This was a very scary scene because in the years prior (about 25 years in fact) my neckpuff had never bothered me. For a few days I didn't know if I'd ever play again. My throat hurt constantly, vocal chords hurt when I talked and my throat really hurt just when blowing my nose let alone trying to play the trumpet.

Fortunately I remembered reading of some neck puff eradication exercises & began practicing them regularly. In a few weeks I returned to playing WITHOUT A NECKPUFF AT ALL! Got my high G back and the story has a happy ending. Gotta admit the whole thing scared the crap out of me though. In the process of recovering I remember feeling fortunate just to be able to play my G top of the staff again. Guess one never knows what he has until it's gone.

A lot of famous players had neck puffs. Obviously Dizzy was the most notable. Bill Chase had a huge one as did Lin Biviano when he played for Maynard & Rich in the Seventies. Don't know if he still puffs the neck these days. I'm told that Al Hirt had one too which is why he wore the beard in order to hide the puff.

I've heard that neck puffs can permanently damage the voical chords, From my own experience I can say that I've probably damaged my throat some permanently too. Sometimes small bits of food get stuck near the spot I felt the most pain from the original injury. Probably the throat cartilage was stretched and now the area has a tendency to hold particles. Shelled peas and popcorn seem to be the most common foods to get temporarly stuck. It's only a small problem and not likely to get worse since I no longer let the throat muscles inflate.

OK, hope the moderator of this page doesn't delete this post. Can't see why anyone would find this topic unsuitable but then trumpet players are such sensitive personalities. More high strung than Prima Dona Ballerinas and touchier than Lesbians too. Comments? Write Lee at: Leesbrass@yahoo.com

Note from Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt Forum Moderator:I did not delete any of your posts. You will find your other post at:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=6607&forum=23&start=0

Please verify your "sources" before making accusations. Thank you. — Rich Willey

[ This Message was edited by: BeboppinFool on 2003-03-03 05:42 ]