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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
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pelirrojo173 wrote: |
My chops aren't really up to a day like that yet, and then I come back battered and broken and read about high school kids playing DHCs all day with ease.... |
Hi,
Don't beat yourself up and end up battered and broken (no pun intended).
Individual trumpet notes are but like individual notes on a piano. When all are sounded together, beautiful music can occur. On a piano no note has more importance or "standing" than any other note. All should be equal. Same on trumpet! A person is no "better" or "worse" than another because of which note he sounds.
Range comes with time AND proper practice. My concern for you is your comment about getting tired and battered, chop-wise. When a young player begins to use force and pressure to make notes come out up high, they are like an amateur golfer without an instructor who learns to perfect a terrible "slice."
Over time, the "muscle memory" being wrong prevents that amatuer golfer from ever getting good. It is the same with a trumpet player. Practice and perform WITHOUT using arm pressure and, once the lightbulb goes on and you have the revelation of how its done, you'll be able to soar all night long. Or . . . you can try to be a little Maynard using the wrong techniques right now and never develop past a person who sounds like a tired high schooler trying to force a note. I know you don't want that!!!
GET A GREAT PRIVATE TEACHER . . .
And I mean a real hard azzz who will refuse to let you cheat and take shortcuts (pressure-wise) in your playing . . . a hard azzz who insists on each an every note you play being as musical as possible. An a player who can back up what he teaches to you about playing in the altissimo register.
High range ain't no big deal at all . . . if you use proper technique. My son had a beautiful, any time DHC . . . and he could do it warmed up or cold, and at both the loud AND soft level. He loved to tell others that he was not special and that they could do it too if they'd play correctly.
Problem is . . . it is hard to tell a highschooler to get the danged pinky finger out of the finger hook, relax the arms and hands, breath properly and let all the compression come simply from the two lips in their CENTERS pushing against each other to greater degrees as one ascends.
Do it this way . . . and you can play beautifully, at ALL volume levels . . . and do it all night long.
Good luck! Get a good private teacher and get to work!
T. |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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pelirrojo173 wrote: | I can't wait to hear it! |
I just pm'd you links to 3 clips . Pardon the delay but I've been fighting a really bad chest cold and sore throat.
This first goes up to double Bb, The second and third go up to an Eb above double C. _________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces |
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pelirrojo173 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 Posts: 1040 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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I never got your PM Maybe there was a TH hiccup or something - could you resend it? |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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pelirrojo173 wrote: | I never got your PM Maybe there was a TH hiccup or something - could you resend it? |
Hmmm, that's bizarre. Seems like my sent message box was full, so I don't even have a record of the PM. I didn't get any message indicating that when I sent it out.
Oh, well, here are the links anyways:
http://www.fileupyours.com/files/153190/STE-005.wav
http://www.fileupyours.com/files/153190/STE-004.wav _________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces
Last edited by fraserhutch on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pelirrojo173 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 Posts: 1040 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Cool |
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janet842 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 570 Location: Denver metro area
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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fraserhutch wrote: | The second and third go up to an Eb above double C. |
Nice! Very nice!
My consistent and playable range is only high E (third ledger line above the staff) and I'm working on the F (when I have to nail it out of the blue, I either overshoot or undershoot it ). For what I'm playing, I really don't need to develop more than a solid and consistent G -- which is somewhere in the future! (My crystal ball broke, so I can't say when that will happen.)
24 years off the trumpet, 3 years back on as of yesterday -- I can live with my E (for now).
Janet |
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PiCK Kanstul Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 704 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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I keep trying to figure out why this thread is in this forum
if you play the high end more it becomes more predictable and reliable.
I don't hear too much above G or A other than Stahl and his lead player. I always like to have a couple more notes at home than i'll need on a gig. I don't have a good C or a triple anything and never have really needed it. Of the ones I've ever heard played by another trumpet player, most were better left unplayed. imo
Annie, from checkingout your website, I would not be too worried right now about double C
hornblatt wrote: | Interestingly enough I once had solid (and I do know what I'm talking about) range up to a high F. I never had it at above mf or so but i did sound good up there. That was when I was (don't kill me) in 8th and 9th grade..... Sadly I slacked off on my high range work and now a few years later barely have a consistant D or Eb. I never see myself becoming a lead player or really anything that needs range much higher than that but I am doing my best to work it up again. The second trumpet at my school has solid range up to an F# or so. Needless to say he plays lead in our big band. |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Actually, I see the OP's point. It's just too easy for people to BS about what they can and can't do, and there are no BS filters here. So he called us out. Fair enough.
For the most part, those who can rarely brag about their ability to do so. Rich Wetzel (GroovinHigher) plays the crap outta that range, and you'll never hear him brag about it, and he's a poster here. Take my word for it - he's got it down.
But you're so very right - if you want to OWN that A, you have to be able to play several tones above it, hence why I am always trying to extend my range. I don't think I plan to use much above an A in public, which, except for a few Goodwin charts I've played, is a good upper limit on a lead's range. The more it extends, the more secure I am in the range I really want to own. I don't think many people are going to want to hear me play a double Eb in public
PiCK Kanstul wrote: | I keep trying to figure out why this thread is in this forum
if you play the high end more it becomes more predictable and reliable.
I don't hear too much above G or A other than Stahl and his lead player. I always like to have a couple more notes at home than i'll need on a gig. I don't have a good C or a triple anything and never have really needed it. Of the ones I've ever heard played by another trumpet player, most were better left unplayed. imo
Annie, from checkingout your website, I would not be too worried right now about double C
hornblatt wrote: | Interestingly enough I once had solid (and I do know what I'm talking about) range up to a high F. I never had it at above mf or so but i did sound good up there. That was when I was (don't kill me) in 8th and 9th grade..... Sadly I slacked off on my high range work and now a few years later barely have a consistant D or Eb. I never see myself becoming a lead player or really anything that needs range much higher than that but I am doing my best to work it up again. The second trumpet at my school has solid range up to an F# or so. Needless to say he plays lead in our big band. |
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_________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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janet842 wrote: | fraserhutch wrote: | The second and third go up to an Eb above double C. |
Nice! Very nice!
My consistent and playable range is only high E (third ledger line above the staff) and I'm working on the F (when I have to nail it out of the blue, I either overshoot or undershoot it ). For what I'm playing, I really don't need to develop more than a solid and consistent G -- which is somewhere in the future! (My crystal ball broke, so I can't say when that will happen.)
24 years off the trumpet, 3 years back on as of yesterday -- I can live with my E (for now).
Janet |
Thanks!
F is a tricky note for me too. Dunno why, it is just not as secure as the notes around it.
24 years is a long time to be off the horn Sounds like you're making great progress! _________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I applaud your ability to pinch the "notes" out, but that's not what comes to mind when I think of being able to play those notes. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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JakeUND Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 589
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Lawler C7R
Leblanc T357
Monette B4S/B4L S1
Last edited by JakeUND on Wed May 13, 2009 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JakeUND Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 589
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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hornblatt wrote: | Interestingly enough I once had solid (and I do know what I'm talking about) range up to a high F. I never had it at above mf or so but i did sound good up there. That was when I was (don't kill me) in 8th and 9th grade..... Sadly I slacked off on my high range work and now a few years later barely have a consistant D or Eb. I never see myself becoming a lead player or really anything that needs range much higher than that but I am doing my best to work it up again. The second trumpet at my school has solid range up to an F# or so. Needless to say he plays lead in our big band. |
After seeing your website who cares about range! Wow, very impressive resume you'll have(already have) going there! Awesome _________________ Lawler C7R
Leblanc T357
Monette B4S/B4L S1 |
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PDGray Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Aug 2006 Posts: 222 Location: Lawton, OK
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: |
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I will add my useless .02 here.
Not only is playing range associated with lots of practice and owning the notes above your target note, but I have come to believe in my (almost) 30 years of playing that a large part of it is your musculature.
Think of it this way: Few people on the earth have the genetics to get the build that Arnold Schwarzenegger or Lou Ferrigno (had). I know that NO MATTER how much I weightlift or body build I will never look like either of those guys. Its just not in the cards for me. You could use this to apply toward anything (I will never play like Miles or Wynton or Bud Herseth or well you get the idea). The converse of this is that Michael Jordan will not likely play the Trumpet as well as I do.
Having said that I have been able to squeak out DHC and DHD and maybe an Eb or E above that, but I do not "own" those notes. I worked at it for a long time. Then I realized that is not what my bread and butter is as a professional player. My goal needed to be sounding the best in the middle range and being functional up to C and D above the staff. I rarely have to hit the E, but have had to go to the G above that. I do not claim to be a lead player, but I have had to do that from time to time.
If you want to hear someone who does have those sorts of chops go to You Tube and search for Steve Reid. He is playing lead with Brian Setzer and is also with a number of other groups. I met him a few months ago and he was a great guy. I really enjoyed my time with him and he is one of the best high note guys I have ever seen.
PDG _________________ 06' Taylor Trumpet-Completely Custom #41043 - The Gray Firebird
86' Bach 37 25th Anniversary model #0790
LA Benge Piccolo Trumpet #41533
Bach C L 239 #230927
http://photos.hi5.com/0001/114/133/YR6N6F114133-02.jpg |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Back to basics: condense the O/P's point to
develop below your highest playable note, with a singing sound, musical over the full dynamic range, and multiple tonguing.
I've been doing this for a while now, and my multiple tonguing is best on a high E. This freaks me out! My highest usable and playable note used to be higher and more powerful, but I'd rather have what I've got now. _________________ "And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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xtyrantx Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2007 Posts: 16
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: .. |
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I can |
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R Walliczek Regular Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Just work your way up to it. Play a lick up there that is within your range, then repeat it over and over, transposing up a half-step as you go.
If you have difficulties with range, I suggest speaking with Wayne Cameron. His website has a forum, or you can call, e-mail or text message him. He also gives online lessons or you can visit him in the Baltimore / Washington area. www.waynecameron.com
The "quick fix" advice:
Exercise 1: Start in the middle register and play a G scale upwards. Remember to increase the air speed as you go. This means focusing the air forward and a higher tongue, as in "ee" or "ss" rather than other vowel sounds. When you reach the top of the scale, switch the held G to alternate fingering 1-3 and lip slur between G, A and B up there. For each note, it will feel like your tongue is locking into place. Remember to focus everything (tongue, air, embouchure, mind) forward. Repeat this chromatically up as far as you can go, then rest a bit.
Exercise 2: Warm up with a lip slur (an arpeggio works well) in order to ensure that your tongue is in the right position for each note. Then when you play a scale going up to each note of the lip slur, your tongue should be in the same position as it was in the slur. The lip slur locks your tongue into the correct position for each note.
See the 7 fundamentals of Trumpet Playing in "Cameron's Law" at the bottom of his Teaching Philosophy page. Every successful player is doing the same thing - this list of fundamentals comes in a handy postcard for easy reference, too. (I've memorized these fundamentals, of course, because they are true ) _________________ "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails." (Proverbs 19:21). |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Here's a clip of my new band from the night before last ("live" through a stereo-pair mic):
Joe Mambo plays Down & Dirty.
I don't have double C's and don't claim to have all that much, but for a guy who used to be as several here have described (trouble with much over "high school" high C) to have come to the point where I am, it's a thrill to be able to post something like this that I did just the other night, and not 20 or 30 years ago when I was a kid.
As an improvising jazz player I want to be able to use my full range as the moment and the mood dictate. Anybody who says they're happy with their range is either lying or kidding themselves. We're trumpet players and we want it all!
By the way, that's a tune I wrote in 1987, I believe. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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R Walliczek Regular Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Delaware
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I like how your solo has direction to it. The changes sound inspired by "A Night in Tunisia" ...and yes, the melody was quite "dirty".
For the topic at hand, I've been able to squeak out a triple B. It was pretty fun, starting the scale from a G above the staff on a piccolo trumpet. I have the recording from my dorm room in 2006... haha, enjoy the unbeatable tone combined with my top-of-the-line iBook condenser mic, sound of the heat fan running included:
Triple G (arpeggio)
Triple B (scale) _________________ "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails." (Proverbs 19:21). |
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mathgeek Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 468 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Tom, your post is outstanding! Read this very closely:
Quote: | Range comes with time AND proper practice. My concern for you is your comment about getting tired and battered, chop-wise. When a young player begins to use force and pressure to make notes come out up high, they are like an amateur golfer without an instructor who learns to perfect a terrible "slice."
Over time, the "muscle memory" being wrong prevents that amatuer golfer from ever getting good. It is the same with a trumpet player. Practice and perform WITHOUT using arm pressure and, once the lightbulb goes on and you have the revelation of how its done, you'll be able to soar all night long. Or . . . you can try to be a little Maynard using the wrong techniques right now and never develop past a person who sounds like a tired high schooler trying to force a note. I know you don't want that!!! |
I am the poster child for this case! I have finally figured out the knack for the altissimo register of the horn, but it is so different I am basically relearning the horn like I am back in 5th grade again!
Tom...single best reply in this thread! Thanks! _________________ Bach 43
Marcinkiewicz CG Personal (22 throat) |
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Ellsworth Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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There is a huge difference between screaming out over a band and playing solo. Yeah, I know that's not really news. However, in improvisational solos with my band, I seem to spend about half the gig above high C. In band gigs or classical gigs, I do not. When I'm in charge of the notes, as in a jazz solo, I know what I have in the can at that moment, and I conduct myself accordingly. When somebody else, living or dead, has written the notes, I have to function as a very good machine.
Don't misunderstand me, I can be a very accommodating machine. Spent a lot of my life learning how to do it. But it's not as much fun as the other way. _________________ Bach Mount Vernon Bb
Schilke B3
Yamaha YTR-741 C
Yamaha YTR-751 D
Besson 60 MD Eb/D
Wurlitzer Melodie C/Bb/A
Conn 85A Bb/A Cornet |
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