Fourth Space E problem

[Asian Man]

Well I've been having problems with the fourth space E (Middle E) and the Eb and F right next to it. For some reason I can never attack it cleanly. Most of the time it's a split tone to our Tuning C or just a sloppy sounding attack. I can slur up to it but not get a clean, secure sounding note by attacking straight on it.

I've been trying to hone in on my usage of Air, making sure I have the sound in my head, and whatever else and it generally doesn't help. I've also tried warming up by first playing that note like the theory to always set your chops up to that E or G. Mouthpiece Buzzing hasn't helped much. Is this a common problem note? I think on my C Trumpet I can play the D just fine.
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[camelbrass]

I'm guessing that you're not 'hearing' the pitch cleanly. Play it, buzz it, sing it, then play it again. It should be spot on.

Regards,


Trevor

[mikeman7]

hmm, yeah, tough one since i can't be in the room...... very good that you're trying to hear it inside first..... sometimes i slur up to the note so that i'm playing it nice and open and resonant. then, i try to "hold" that position/feeling in my embouchure and throat and try a cold attack to recapture the same sound etc.

......lastly one thing is to just totally over-blow/overshoot it. in other words, attack it hard and loud!! do it several times at FF, don't even worry about a "good tone". then, you should be able to do it at MF fairly easily. it's kind of a psych out trick. gets your head out of the way. know what i mean? like in golf.
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[Take it 8va]

I had a similar problem with 'F'. My director just had me play the note over, and over, and over, and over. I would play up to it from C and hold it out for a couple a seconds, then start right on it a couple times, then take the mouthpiece of my face and then try to play the note. over and over and over and over.
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[DavidC]

Relax It should help
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[butxifxnot]

[roynj]

Try practicing doing pp entrances on these notes. Start off with the note in your head, then play the note with a very light "poo" attack at pp volume and hold it at pp for a few beats. It takes some trial and error to get these pp attacks right, but doing so can help sort out these kinds of problems. Hope it helps.

[miles71]

If I havent played for a while I always have a problem with this area of the horn. Most horns have some intonation issues in this partial, so make sure you are not trying to adjust to much. Just use the air a few times and dont worry about the intonation, just let the horn play. I would bet you could play a flat F cleanly. Once you start to feel that note and where it sets on the instrument it should help.

TD

[aaron]

For a while I had the exact same problem and was VERY frustrated by it. For some reason, it was a lot worse on my C trumpet. The advice above, like buzzing, relaxing and breathing well, are givens with any trumpet problem. Here's a few more that helped me:

1. Try to keep the same embouchure for all ranges. There is kind of a "break" between middle and upper registers around E-flat to F. You mentioned this approach already, but try this little trick:

Play a quarter note (middle G, middle C, or even high A... experiment). Take the horn off your face. Reset and play the same note. Repeat a few times, then set up the same way and play ascending/descending scales.

2. Every note has a "slot" on the horn, and you might be trying to play those notes outside where they sit on your trumpet. I attacked E lower than it sits, so I heard a scratchy C sound in front of them. Try playing those notes sharper than you're used to - experiment with buzzing, extending valve slides and alternate fingerings - and then sit down with a tuner to make sure the final product is still in tune.

One more thing: for me, this problem felt a lot worse than it actually sounded.

[Craig Swartz]

I would suggest that one is trying too hard to play the note up to pitch. These are a couple of the worst notes on the trumpet and if one overcompensates, it will be difficult to center the pitch, even where it naturally lies on the horn. For a while, try using 1-2 for the E, 1-3 for D if that is a problem. See if the problem still persists. Best wishes!

[acompton]

Anyone want to offer any new techniques/exercises/tricks for practicing clean attacks on 4th space Eb? (Using 2-3 fingering)

On my C trumpet I'm having a really tough time getting it to speak with the same kind of consistency I can get from the notes right around it. I feel like I'm either squeezing it into place (cheating on air support) or massively accenting it just to get a clean front-end to the tone without a slight (or not so slight) "pffff."

Thanks in advance. Looking forward to hearing what 15 years of ruminating on this question has yielded!

Andrew

PS: FYI--on the equipment side, I'm playing a Bach 229 with a (new) Dr Valve A-length pipe, and am still experimenting with a Bach 6BM and a Yamaha Hagstrom. So if that helps to inform your advice, there you go!
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Saint John, IN

[Jaw04]

It's the worst note on trumpet, because it's such a flat partial. I audiate the opening of the Arutunian Trumpet Concerto often if I have to hit a fourth space E. I am not just imagining the pitch, I am imagining with great detail the tone and articulation I am looking for as well, played by a master (Dokshizer).

[Goby]

I'll offer a different opinion than the other posters: it's likely your gear causing this problem. Of course, practicing (especially flexibility) and ear training will help, but you're fighting physics on that note.

4th space E is notoriously flat on all trumpets, especially ones with a "Bach 25" style leadpipe and standard configuration tuning slide. Your mouthpiece is likely too deep and acting like a boat anchor on that note, pulling it flat and causing you to chip or split it. I'd suggest a slightly smaller mouthpiece (Vincent Bach himself recommended a 10-1/2C for C trumpet), and certainly one with a shallower cup, in the ballpark of a C or D depth. It might take a little work to get your full sound on a shallower piece, but you will be rewarded with easier playing and *hopefully* a more in-tune partial. If you don't mind playing mad scientist, experimenting with mouthpiece gap can also change the intonation tendencies of the overtone series, and you might be able to dial in that partial a bit. Another side note: a lot of C trumpet players use 1-2 for top space E, as it places the note a little bit high, and you can use the 1st valve slide to bring the pitch down.

[JayKosta]

In addition to 'hearing the note', it is also necessary to develop the conditioned response of 'feeling the note' with your embouchure, breath, and fingering.

Every note has its own 'physical attributes' that need to established in order to play them cleanly. Long tone intervals are a way to notice the 'necessary conditions'.
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[zaferis]

Many good replies.. but again, really hard to tell for sure what the issue(s) is without hearing/seeing you play. Something that can be approached in private lessons.

I'm gonna guess on the side of tuning/pitch being a healthy portion of your issue.. You may not be hearing the note in the same place the instrument and your chops are wanting to place it.
I'd have you really do some work on finding a good center point for tuning the instrument. I would check that you've not gotten into the habit of pulling the slide too far out (tuning on the low side) - it's easy to lip the middle and low registers up (playing on the high side of the tones) - which makes the upper register flat-ish - then these notes that are flat overtones are so flat that you can't lip them up enough, making them hard to hit/center cleanly.

long tones, flow studies, scales, arpeggios.. with a tuner and metronome.

When tuning, don't look at the tuner, center the pitch, then look-adjust the instrument accordingly.

Could be that it's a gear issue. I see you have Curry mouthpieces listed-I find them very good so, I"m thinking not a mouthpiece issue.. but note that this kind of thing can be affected by cup depth, throat size, shank length, and the gap. You mentioned that it's not as apparent of an issue on your C trumpet - are you using the same mouthpiece? Many players find that a more open throated mouthpiece diminishes this issue on C trumpet vs. what they play on Bb.
Bring it up in lessons and get the opinion of in-person help.
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[Subtropical and Subpar]

D and especially E are flat on my Kanstul, the one thing that keeps it from being a perfect horn I tend to use 1-2 for E, but with it being a small bore horn using 1-3 for D presents a really small target, so I just work a little harder to push the note up into pitch. But yowza the E is really flat naturally.
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[fleming]

You should ask your trumpet teacher about this.

He/she hears/sees you play regularly and is very familiar with you as a musician, trumpeter, and human being.

You have a teacher, right?

[shofarguy]

I've also been trying to increase my accuracy playing the notes in that partial and the one above it. Here are two things to try:

Clock your mouthpiece. I know some people say its a placebo, but try it anyway. I use the rim/cup stamp as the index point. Mine is "B3." Start at the 12:00 position. Play something short that has intervals, like "Alfie." Pay attention to your accuracy and ease level. Now rotate the mouthpiece 45 degrees and play the same exact thing again. Don't try to perfect your playing, just observe how difficult it is. Keep rotating the mouthpiece 45 degrees each time until you get back to the 12:00 position. By now, you should have found an obvious "sweet spot" where the sound, resonance and accuracy come into focus. Use that clock position every time you play.

Play in the center of each note. Sometimes, a player will either play on the low side of the pitch (Benge players) or the high side (Bach players) in order to mitigate problems with the horn"s scale. One solution to this is to tune concert A, second valve middle staff line. It has the smallest note circle and is easy to feel where the center is. Relax into that note and feel where it wants to play. Tune the horn. If you have to move your slide a fair amount, this might have been a contributor to your problem. Build your Concert Bb scale slowly in your mind. Play each note of the scale finding its center and recalibrate your ear to that scale. Take you time, it's important to get this right. You are equating pitch with feel in a new way.

Another thing that may need to happen:
Get your horn optimized by Jim Becker, if he will still do it. There is a thread on the Horns forum that I think is called Where is Jim Becker? or something like that. He used to do this for Osmun Music up until a few months ago. He will correct the valve alignment and bore throughout the length of the instrument. He specialized in bringing Bach trumpets to their very best playing condition.
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[acompton]