Alternatives to Enderal?

TrinityTrumpet · Regular Member Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 14

Hello everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows of alternatives to enderal (spelling?), which I believe is the prescription beta blocker commonly used to relieve performance anxiety. I'm a senior at a small university, double majoring in music and economics, and I'm currently preparing my senior recital. While it's a bear of a program (Telemann, Haydn, Arutunian, and Goedeckie), I know that I can pull it off providing that nerves don't come into play. While I feel that performance anxiety is my biggest obstacle, for several reasons I would prefer not to use prescription beta blockers. I know bananas are supposed to help in this regard, but my experience with these has always been "If I'm this nervous now, I'd hate to think what it would be like without eating those bananas." So, other than bananas, I was wondering about other alternative beta blockers, possibly herbal or dietary supplements, or other foods that contain these chemicals. Thanks for any help!!!

johntpt · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:09 am Post subject:

Trinity Trumpet-

This is a good topic for discussion. I agree with you that beta blockers are not the best solution for performance anxiety. The only lasting long term solution is to build your self confidence. Start by discovering the reasons for your nervousness and then work to overcome them. I recommend reading books such as "A Soprano on Her Head" by Eloise Ristad and "The Inner Game Of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey. These books will help you develop a most important aspect of musical performance - controlling the way you think about your performances and building your self confidence.

BTW When I was an undergraduate at the University of Wisconsin I was also a double major in music and economics! That is probably not the most common double major out there. What are your plans for the future?

Good luck on your recital!

John Urness

[ This Message was edited by: johntpt on 2003-02-22 12:16 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:32 am Post subject:

Welcome to TH!

I have bouts of performance anxiety myself, and have done a lot of reading about it. Here are some of the things I've found that help. Some of them are a bit obvious, but important, nonetheless.

1. Be so outstandingly prepared that you become eager to get out there and show them what you can do.

2. Remember that, if you focus on the music, you'll get into a "zone" and the audience and/or judges will recede into the background.

3. Be sure you drink lots of water well ahead of your performance so you don't develop dry mouth. While you're waiting to go on you can gently bite the inside of your mouth to stimulate saliva.

4. Welcome anxiety as an aide to your performance. Realize it's part of the primal "fight or flight" phenomenon that nature offers humans (maybe animals, too -- who knows?) in times of stress.

5. Stay in the moment. Don't think ahead to "the hard parts."

6. Let any mistakes go. Don't let any fluffs cause you to "try harder." That only increases tension.

7. Remember that, brilliant performance or not, millions of people will be completely and utterly unaware of what transpired.

8. Make sure you get plenty of sleep two nights before the performance. Athletes know that two nights before is more important than the night immediately preceding a game.

9. Remember to breathe correctly. This doesn't mean taking huge breaths at every opportunity. If you do that, you'll hyperventilate. Do maintain good posture and breathe from the bottom up. Keep your throat relaxed. In fact, keep your whole body relaxed. This can be difficult, I know, but if you can learn some meditation technique, it will help you.

10. Take a yoga class to work on relaxation, breathing, and flexibility. In fact, create an entire physical fitness program for yourself because if you feel better, you'll play better under any and all circumstances.

11. Above all, try to enjoy the process. Remember, it's called "playing the trumpet" not "working the trumpet."

Good luck, and have fun!

Jim
________________
Jim Hatfield/Chicago Area
"The notes are in the horn. Find them." Charles Mingus

[ This Message was edited by: jhatpro on 2003-02-22 13:43 ]

[ This Message was edited by: jhatpro on 2003-02-22 14:00 ]

tcutrpt · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:24 am Post subject:

If your university has some smaller scale recital opportunities, try and perform a piece at one of those. I'm in a similar situation. I'm preparing a junior recital right now and I plan on performing as many of the pieces in advance as I can to get an idea of what will happen when nerves start creeping up. Play for your friends too. Just play in front of people and while it won't completely eliminate the nerves, it will help a bit. Best of luck with your recital!
_________________
Matt Cyr
trumpetmc@gmail.com

TrinityTrumpet · Regular Member Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 14

Thanks for the responses. While some of them were things I'd heard before, some of these suggestions are new to me (I think in particular the idea of sleeping more two nights bfore the performance makes a great deal of sense and will be very helpful). While performance anxiety has been a problem since I began playing, I've always managed to cope with it, at least to the point of giving fairly decent performances. My recital program is incredibly demanding in terms of endurance (at least for a relative amature like myself:), and I'm worried that anxiety could lead to not enough breath support and/or too much mpc pressure. While my endurance and upper register are fairly strong, I'm afraid that the fatal combination of no air/too much pressure could prove fatal w/ a performance like this. Thanks again for the suggestions!!!

BTW: In response to your question, I'm hoping to attend law school next year. I'm in the process of hearing back from schools right now. While I'm sure I'll get in somewhere, it is frustrating that an outstanding GPA doesn't always compensate for a less than perfect LSAT score (and an economy so bad that everone and their dog is going to law school:). Anway, thanks again:)

Mr. Stomvi · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Apr 2002 Posts: 1062

TrinityTrumpet,

Whats your problem with Indural (propranolol) ? Works great. I speak from experience. Essentially no side effects especially at the incredibly small dosages used for performance anxiety (i.e. 10-20mg - normal dosage is 100-300mg per day). Cheap too (cost me $ 5 for 30 performances worth with insurance copay). Stuff is a god send. My trumpet teacher - who suggested it to me (I'm 47 and study with one of our local trumpet profs) has
been using it for 20 years for both trumpet performances and conducting duties. He figures that probably 75% of most major orchestral players and soloists use it. It has really, really helped my ability to perform to the point where I can't wait to perform next.

Seth Moore
_________________
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music."

Billy Wilder

jhatpro · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject:

I don't wish to start a debate over the pros and cons of Inderal, but I think it's worth pointing out that it does have some side effects, including headaches and sexual impotence.

In fact, Inderal does nothing to diminish the psychological barriers to a serene performance, only the physical manifestations of anxiety, including increased heart rate, perspiration, etc.

Because Inderal cannot be obtained legally without a prescription, there is the presumption of supervision by an MD. Still, anyone who would consider taking the drug should consider it very carefully, keeping in mind their own health history. For example, Inderal is not recommended for anyone with a history asthma.

There are a number of helpful threads on the subject on the rec.music.makers.trumpet News Group.

Jim
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.â€ Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

Mr. Stomvi · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Apr 2002 Posts: 1062

Jim - I don't think that any side effects will ever come into play (headaches, impotence, etc.) at the incredibly low dosages we are talking about here (10-20mg per performance). Most reported side effects (if any) are seen when used in the normal prescribed range of 200-300mg per day to control high HR and BP.

Also - at these super low dosages (10-20mg per performance) the HR, BP and perspiration rate controlling components don't come into play - just the anti anxiety component.

I also think that besides the physiological benefits enjoyed from the use of propranolol the psychological benefits cannot be discounted either as it sure makes it a heck of a lot easier to perform well when you know in advance that your performance will not be hindered by performance anxiety.

Seth Moore
_________________
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music."

Billy Wilder

SteveS · Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:15 pm Post subject:

To anyone reading this with a medical need for any drug, I do not mean you. I work with people that are clinicaly in need of chemical balance, it happens move on, live your life.

Having said that and not meaning to flame, but Seth are you insane? John and Jim have it right. go enjoy the music and performance, at the very least the Zen of the moment. Taking a drug so you don't experience the highs and the lows is like losing a sense.

Unless you have a medical need for a drug that balances (originally I said inhibits, but that is wrong) your emotions, you are denying music.

Claude Gordon had a great line at his seminars, about missing notes, it happens, make them good misses.

His story is about a CBS live radio gig where he was off at the end by about a bar. Drilled a double C against the wall after everyone else was done. It happens move on.

And yes, Herseth, Manny, and Winton , etc. miss notes, it's not the end of the world. It's part of music.

Peace
Steve.S
_________________
----------------------------------------------------
man:
Advanced breed of Monkey
Living on a minor planet
Of an insignificant sun

andy van slyke · New Member Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 1

Try turkey before a performance. The same stuff that makes you sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner will take some of the edge off the nerves. For dry mouth, try breaking up candy into little pieces and take some with you on stage. A tiny piece of candy can stimulate saliva production and is small enough that you can pop one in during a rest and swallow it before you play.

elbobogrande · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:56 am Post subject:

Steve,
I don't understand where you're coming from. Inderal doesn't at all directly affect your enjoyment of the performance. It could possibly make a performance more enjoyable if you perform it better. Inderal doesn't even guarantee that. There's still the element of preparedness/skill. One can still play poorly and he'd still get every bit of that moment's Zen. The same holds true if you pull off the performance of your lifetime. No shortage of Zen there, either. As far as its effects on emotions, you're obviously misinformed. The effect of Inderal (with the exception of depression, which, admittedly is one of the rarest side effects[read:incredibly rare]) on emotions is precisely squat. Nihil.

Inderal is a Beta blocker that affects your heart and circulatory system. It doesn't even directly affect sweating as someone mentioned above. Perspiration is just an attendant problem of the physiological effects of stress to the circulatory system.

What's this talk about missed notes??? Those don't enter into the issue, in my opinion. Maybe if Inderal were used to combat missed notes, but it doesn't do that.

When used in the miniscule doses that doctors prescribe for performance anxiety, Inderal is an exceptionally innocuous substance.

As far as confidence being the best way to combat performance anxiety, John is right. Probably the best way to use Inderal is in proving to one's self that he doesn't have to be incredibly nervous because of a performance. To experience a performance once or twice (whether good or bad) without the debilitating effects of anxiety is often enough for the player to subconsciously and consciously realize that nervousness isn't a necessary factor in a performance. I used Inderal twice. I didn't become dependent on Inderal. Rather, I gained independence from the thought that harmful anxiety(read:DIStress, not EUstress) always accompanies performance.

Sorry if I sound rather passionate about this. I've done a lot of research on beta blockers for the purposes of performance anxiety, and I've given two presentations on this subject in classes. Much of my research was with the assistance/advice/supervision(for accuracy) of a PharmD(doc of pharmacy). A good deal of what people tell you about the bad effects of Inderal is blind misinformation.
John
P.S. Where's Nonsense Eliminator when I need him/her?

_________________
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John Cox
13625 S. 48th St.
Phoenix, AZ 85044
home/work (480)361-3607

[ This Message was edited by: elbobogrande on 2003-02-24 06:06 ]

[ This Message was edited by: elbobogrande on 2003-02-24 06:12 ]

[ This Message was edited by: elbobogrande on 2003-02-24 06:16 ]

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:39 am Post subject:

Steve - you may consider this over picky, but I doubt that Claude ever played a double C at a gig. It was just not required.

The note in question, according to Claude, was a high "D." I have the story on tape.

As for the drug issue, there are always going to be players who will go to great lengths to justify the use of drugs. If they follow the teaching of their phamicologist or medical doctor (both who derive their financial security from dealing drugs) then any argument against drugs will be a waste of time. I know, as I have a Dr. friend who is also a trumpet player. He considers my stance on alternative health to be insane. To maintain the friendship, we just don't go there.

He's wrong, by the way.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

_bugleboy · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:59 am Post subject:

There are 2 aspects to overcoming performance anxiety.

1. GOOD HEALTH - and everything requisite

2. GOOD CHOPS - and everything requisite

SteveS · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:39 pm Post subject:

Jeff,
I stand corrected; the CG seminar I saw was in 77 or 78. Wish I had thought to tape it.
The point of the story is still there and tells better with the correction.
Did you used to live up here in Oregon?

All:
My apologies for a glib and disrespectful approach to a real question and issue. I do not have any issues with the use of Inderal or any approach (tools) that helps a person succeed, and I regret the “are you insane” crack.

What I failed to express and really do have an issue with is:
This is a public forum of wildly varying age groups, skills, and knowledge. Some of the responses on this board sounded to me like a wholesale endorsement of something that requires a prescription. Given the audience of the trumpetherald & nature of the world and a typcial desire for instant results this struck me as irresponsible.

If the intent is to suggest going to doctor ask them about (insert choice), risks and options or alternatives. Then my apologies, I did not read that in the message.

End of soap box.
_________________
----------------------------------------------------
man:
Advanced breed of Monkey
Living on a minor planet
Of an insignificant sun

James B. Quick · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:08 pm Post subject:

I'm not qualified to address the drug issue, but for me it helps to think like this: If the audience could play the horn, they would be the ones on stage. Since they're not, it falls to you (me). Of course, this may not work in some venues....

O-Ring · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jul 2002 Posts: 166

if you dont want enderal give propranolol a shot............................the pink pill of magic is the viagera of the music world......................

jhatpro · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:54 pm Post subject:

Inderal is a brand name for propranolol.

Jim
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.â€ Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:33 pm Post subject:

Never fear, elbobo -- wherever there is Nonsense, I shall appear!

Unfortunately, on this particular topic, I suspect we may have different definitions of what constitutes "Nonsense"...

It is probably true that the chances of sufferring most of the possible clinical side-effects of Inderal are low. I can't address that with any degree of competence, but from what I have heard, reports of side-effects err on the side of caution -- so if one guy on the study got the runs from taking Highnoterazine, it goes on the list, or something to that effect. On the other hand, drugs are approved because the risk and seriousness of side-effects are mitigated by the potential benefits -- in the case of Inderal, I guess that would be not dying of a heart attack, which is a heck of a big mitigating factor. On balance, though, it seems to me that while the side-effects may be a small factor, it's not a deal-breaker. (A far bigger health issue is the fact that many people seem to get Inderal from a buddy rather than from a doctor. Can you say, "Bonehead"?)

Health issues aside, I think there are some very serious issues with use of drugs (Inderal or more, ahem, recreational substances) to combat anxiety. I have never used betablockers, as I have never felt it necessary. I have observed friends who use them, however, and have noticed a few things which worry me. First of all, having heard some "blocked" recitals of people whose "unblocked" playing I know, my impression is that the playing always seems detached, like the person isn't really up there. This goes to jhatpro's point about the fight-or-flight instinct. Part of what makes live music worth hearing is the chance to hear something really special. The adrenaline surge is what makes that possible -- however, sometimes it also leads to massive disasters. Inderal seems to level things out; if I wanted to listen to levelled-out playing, I have a perfectly good CD player.

Second, whether or not Inderal is chemically addictive, it seems to me that it is quite possible to develop a psychological dependence on it. I know people who wouldn't dream of taking an audition or playing a big concert without it. The next step is all concerts, then the first rehearsal, then all the time. That would worry me. I have some neurotic tendencies -- I check my case two or three times before I leave the house to make sure I have everything: trumpets, mouthpieces, music, mutes. I'd hate to have to add "prescription drugs" to that list -- never mind remembering to take them in time for them to kick in. I don't want to develop a Sergio Garcia twenty-waggle pre-stroke routine to my trumpet playing, and I don't want to rely on anything other than me and my horn.

Third, and most significantly, most performance anxiety can be "treated" without drugs. I know people who have tried everything -- Yoga, meditation, you name it -- and are really solid players, but still get the shakes on stage. For them, Inderal is probably a legitimate option. However, many of the people using or considering Inderal have not even begun to "try everything", and many are nervous about performing for a very good reason. If you aren't prepared, you darn well ought to be nervous. Preparing doesn't just mean learning the piece -- it means learning to play the trumpet right, every time. If something works every time in the practice room but doesn't work on stage, your problem is nerves. If it works some of the time in the practice room and some of the time on stage, your problem is preparation.

The point is, the fear of walking on stage and completely falling apart is a very powerful motivator. For a professional who's tried everything, medication may be the answer. For an amateur with no goals beyond not making an ass of himself in church, sure, take a pill. But for somebody who wants to improve, is taking a pill to improve your chances of playing average really a good idea? Average performances aren't very instructive. Great ones, and terrible ones, are a fantastic opportunity to learn what's right and what's wrong. You may think the problem is nerves, but deep down, are you really surprised when things don't work? Nerves may prevent you from having a "good day". But if you need to have a good day to make it through, is the problem nerves?

Okay, enough rhetoric, here's some advice, for what it's worth.

1.) I have found having an approach to the instrument that encourages me to focus on my goal has helped a great deal. By concentrating on what I want to sound like, rather than how worried I am, I can push the destructive thoughts out of my head much more easily -- because I practice concentrating every time I pick up the horn.

2.) Enjoy it. Smile. Seriously -- a big goofy grin. Say, "This is great! I love this! THIS FREAKING ROCKS! GO TEAM!" Take the stairs two at a time. Skip. Get fired up! You think you're nervous, how about athletes taking the field in a championship game? They don't fret and fuss, they headbutt each other and yell. It is a very fine line between scared and excited. I know which side I'd rather be on.

3.) Just do it. You're not going to beat your nerves reading diatribes on the Internet! Take every opportunity you can to play. Start with situations that don't bother you, then move up to the ones that do. There is no secret formula, you just have to do it over and over until you get used to it.

4.) Nobody else is going to play that thing for you, so suck it up. You're stuck in this situation, might as well make the best of it.

5.) Nobody dies if you play badly.

SteveS · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:49 pm Post subject:

Nonesense Eliminator;

That was beautiful.

Regards
SteveS
_________________
----------------------------------------------------
man:
Advanced breed of Monkey
Living on a minor planet
Of an insignificant sun

O-Ring · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jul 2002 Posts: 166

im crying right now but lets hold the phone a minute here folkes… we are talkin about betas….......... not heroin…………… if you go to an orchestra audition betas are about as common as petroushka…..................... is this a bad thang.....…. ……..eveyone is entiteled to there own opinion…………… they baned betas from olympic competition and shooting sports and i dont think it was because it was making the competition worse or people were mindless zombies…………………….music is not shooting a gun but try shooting a gun when you are nervous and you arnt gonna hit you target………………………try the trumpet weh you are nervous and its gonna suck aswell ………………… peoepl claim there is a chemical in bananas that work very similar to beta blockers……………some people will eat 5-6 bananas before a performance or audition…. does that mean we should tell people to stay away from bananas………………............. fi you dont believe in betas and dont use them great..... fine.......................good for you................. but lets not make this out to be some fight against an awful drug ruining our society and music…............does that mean if you are a band director and your middle schooll student is nervous for his district auditon and asks you what to do and you offer him a beta……..… maybe ……....... if you get really nervous before concerts and have tried a bunch of different options and have done your yoga and deep breathing …………and read your soprano on her head and nothing works go ahead and see about betas…. do you have to stay on em for the rest of your life.............. no.......................... can you quit at any time.... yes/ is the drug habit forming like nicotine no maybe on betas once once will give you the confidence and show you that you can play with out folding like a high school kid on a monete………………….. i have been to many friends recitals whose playing i know well and i wish i could have called an intemission to give em 10mgs of betas…............................ this is in cases where the player is tighter than a piccolo snare and obviously struggling with things and it is not because h or she was not prepared nerves had taken over and as a result the playing was tight;……………….. notes didnt speak like they always do ……………………and instead of music they were trying to survive the performance….. ……………… this is not some mind altering drug… what it will do is block your beta receptors……… that means if your heart races it wont if you shake like a leaf in the wind you wont if your breathing is very labored it might not be as bad etc……. its not like your mind is gonna be the movie jacobs ladder or something……………this isnt cocaine or acid here……………. lets not throw the baby out with the bath water