4 valve high F trumpet in the orchestra?

[O00Joe]

So I've heard of a small trend of some trumpeters using 4 valve Eb trumpets in situations typically relegated to Bb trumpets.

Does the 4 valve F trumpet have a possible future in the orchestra? The 4th valve functionally gives it the same range as a C trumpet but I imagine the bore and bell would have to be larger than is typical for higher keyed trumpets. But why not? If the timbre fits within the orchestra'a sound concept, I imagine there could be many benefits.

The only 4 valve high F trumpet I'm aware of is the Schilke G1L-4 with F slides and bell only being an option. It does mention it being ideal for solo, chamber, and orchestral playing.

What are ya'll's thoughts? Regardless I need an Eb/D, a C rotary (Dowids BZ GL60 ), and maybe a Bb cornet before I can consider going after a 4 valve F trumpet.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

[Danbassin]

Besides good potential for Future Orchestra (think of the PARSIFAL 4-valve rotary F made by Oberrauch, to say nothing of the multiple high-pitch 4-valves (both piston and rotary) Höfs models by Thein being used to extraordinary acclaim), there’s some significant history with this instrument, too.

Three-valve F trumpets were for some time one of the few high horn options historic principals had. Voisin’s adoption of various early Bb and A piccs moved things along, but Vacchiano was a lifelong proponent of the high F trumpet. The late principal player of the Buffalo Philharmonic, and noted soloist, David Kuehn was said to play virtually everything in the orchestra on a modified four-valve Schilke F (actually an E3L-4 modified to a fixed bell with telescoping leadpipe that was up for sale not too long ago).

So, yes. More good news: we have better-made, more consistent and in-tune options with three or four piston or rotary (or both!) valves in every high key at our disposal now than any trumpeters of previous generations. What we do with them, that’s where the musical challenge begins - not only the technical one: how do we want to sound on each of these horns, and why are we reaching for one over the other? Fun!

Happy practicing,
-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD

[dstpt]

I have owned a Schilke 4v EFG for a number of years. The G side has been used the most, and actually the E side next, and lastly the F side. Years ago I did send the body with the E bell/slides back to Schilke in preparation to perform the Stravinisky Pulcinella Suite. I had them cut the bell down, since I had to push all the way in to get to A440 with the mpc I was using. There's a lot to that story, but it turned out well in the long run. I also used the E side recently for a single movement (all in E major) of a solo trumpet part in a chamber orchestra. It was a premier in a Catholic church, and the piece was entitled, "Requiem for the Unborn." I used my B&S 4v Eb with a cut-down Bach 239G (C tpt) bell on the other mvts. It was a very reverberant space and both horns worked well.

The late David Kuehn's almost exclusive use of a Schilke 4v F trumpet with a B cup mpc has intrigued me ever since I heard. One player told me his experience sitting in the section of a regional orchestra performance of Mahler #2, where Mr. Kuehn was guest principal tpt. This player said it sounded just like a C tpt.

Mr. Kuehn had an extremely lyrical approach, which you can hear on his solo recordings on YouTube. His intonation and control and expressiveness with his vibrato are extremely convincing, and his musicality is second to none. I can hear a slight difference to a C tpt sound with the F tpt in a few spots, like the ff passage toward the end of "From the Mountain Top," but the other attributes in his playing outweigh me missing the use of a C tpt.

The Stomvi line of 4v trumpets and cornets has likewise been fascinating, which I suppose has been linked to international trumpet virtuoso Pacho Flores having worked so closely with the President of the company Vicente Ibañez. They do not offer a 4v F trumpet, but they do have a 4v F cornet. I've wondered how that sound might compare to the Schilke. (You can see this horn on the Stomvi-USA website but not on the main company website, btw.)

Thein has produced trumpets in low F, Bb, C, E/Eb/D, G piccolo, A/Bb piccolo, and C piccolo, but I'm not finding a trumpet in high F on their website. I had thought Matthias Höfs would have played one at some point, either solo or with the German Brass. Maybe I'm overlooking something on their website. (I also find it interesting that Thein refers to their G as a "G piccolo," but Schilke omits "piccolo" in reference to their G. The Baroque low G tpt has been long gone, so maybe that's a good enough reason to omit "piccolo.")

So that brings me to conclude that Schilke is the only one who has made a 4v F tpt, and Stomvi a 4v F cornet. The length of the Stomvi with its shepherd's crook bell certainly wouldn't be convincing to a conductor who is "listening with his eyes" and insisting everything be done on the "big trumpet," in which case, a player would do much better with a Schilke in hand.

[wilder]

Hi. Forget it. jw