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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1464
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: New York Bach vs Modern Bach which plays better, howrthydif |
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What are the different characteristcs between NY and modern Bach? |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2537 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: New York Bach vs Modern Bach which plays better, howrthy |
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improver wrote: | What are the different characteristcs between NY and modern Bach? |
Take a look at Dave's Bach Trumpet page for a whole list of characteristics.
http://www.electrotheremin.com/bach.html |
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Scorpion Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 1960 Location: hell
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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the new york bachs have a free toy inside. The modern one only come with a bazooka joe comic rolled up in the 3rd valve slide. _________________ -GET OVER HERE!
-1964 Olds Super Balanced Depleted Uranium single flue Harpoon (w/custom coprion hand guard i got from a 1925 Conn Erradicator.) Akright converted handle w/calfskin grip (143xx) |
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WildCat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 1820
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Scorpion wrote: | the new york bachs have a free toy inside. The modern one only come with a bazooka joe comic rolled up in the 3rd valve slide. |
Dammit, that's why I never got one of the decoder rings! _________________ Vince K. |
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Joebaca Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 111 Location: Atesup,CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think that Vintage horns have a warmer feel than modern horns. I have owned a modern 43 bach and Mt Vernons.. The Mt Vernons had that warmness but took a little more adjust the intonation. I now play on a 1945 Martin Committee and love it.. It took a few weeks to adjust. But it is the best horn i have ever owned...The intonation is pretty dam good.. Better than any Mt Vernon i have played. _________________ "Enjoy each day" |
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WildCat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 1820
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Joebaca wrote: | I think that Vintage horns have a warmer feel than modern horns. I have owned a modern 43 bach and Mt Vernons.. The Mt Vernons had that warmness but took a little more adjust the intonation. I now play on a 1945 Martin Committee and love it.. It took a few weeks to adjust. But it is the best horn i have ever owned...The intonation is pretty dam good.. Better than any Mt Vernon i have played. |
Just a question, but how was the compression on the valves and slides on all those Mt. Vernon Bachs? I've played some that I thought were dogs due to that, but the majority [which were the well-maintained/restored ones] have had very nice pitch. _________________ Vince K. |
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puukka Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 494 Location: Krems an der Donau/Austria
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: |
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According this article the New York and Mt. Vernon Bachs had at least a lightweight bell.
http://www.erikveldkamp.nl/Resources/tests/VincentBach197.pdf
So as example the Kanstul 1500B should be nearer than a today´s Strad.
If someone states, that the New York or Mount Vernon plays better, then I could think about the faster response by the lighweight bell....oh, do I now bust a myth?
Herbert _________________ Schilke 11C2
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Frankly, I don't see any rational way to compare the two.
They are entirely different in style, materials, and craftmanship. Braces
were frequently moved around and of different shapes and sizes. In some
instances, it is impossible to tell what model it actually is without having
the actual shop card.
I would love to get my hands on a good one, but not at the prices that
are asked for them.
Rich Tomasek |
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Joebaca Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 111 Location: Atesup,CA
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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You make a excellent point. At this point in my life i feel the Martin Committee is the best i have ever played.. The horn looks old but it feels and plays great.. Not a lead players choice horn but for the average weekend warrior section player, it is incredible _________________ "Enjoy each day" |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Joebaca wrote: | ...I have owned a modern 43 bach and Mt Vernons... |
I owned a '55 Mt. Vernon 43 and a '77 Elkhart 43 at the same time. Actually, I had them both for about 20 years before I sold one of them. I sold the Mt. Vernon......
It played a little differently from the Elkhart, but not better - just different. I preferred the Elkhart for everyday use. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Joebaca Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 111 Location: Atesup,CA
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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I just picked up a Super olds 145##.. This horn plays so open. _________________ "Enjoy each day" |
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puukka Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 494 Location: Krems an der Donau/Austria
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Joebaca wrote: | You make a excellent point. At this point in my life i feel the Martin Committee is the best i have ever played.. The horn looks old but it feels and plays great.. Not a lead players choice horn but for the average weekend warrior section player, it is incredible |
Joebaca wrote: | I just picked up a Super olds 145##.. This horn plays so open. |
Hmm, guess we won´t help improver regarding his interesting question , when we list our lovies.
Herbert _________________ Schilke 11C2
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cleanhead77@embarqmail Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 320 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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The NY Strads and the early Mt Vernon Strads (and Mercedes) are similar in design, with a narrower wrap. Sometime during the Mt Vernon era the design changed to a wider wrap which was continued into the Elkhart production and has continued to this day. Therefore the earlier narrow wrap Bachs are a really different horn. The really early Bach Strads from the middle 1920's are indeed different from any of the above. _________________ So many trumpets and mouthpieces, so little time. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody's mentioned the early NY Bachs were handmade custom jobs for a specific player? (Inconsistency at it's best) Quite a bit different from a send-it-down-the-line production model. _________________ "And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I believe Bach made as many as 72 bells, only a handfull of which are still available in current production. Additionally, the configurations, bracing, bell material, varied widely through the years. Bach was quite prolific with experimentation.
My NY is a 1937 #10 bell, and feels lighter in the hand than my late Mt. Vernon and early Elkhart which were assembled five years apart. The shop card lists the NY bell as 51 gauge, but that sounds awfully thin, unless gauge standards have changed since then. Regardless, the sound it makes is quite dense and pure and it doesn't feel like it's going to break up when pushed to the limit as I have experienced with light weight bells of other mfrs..
I've owned my share of vintage Strads in thinning things down to the current trio. All I can say is that they are all alike, but different. I think it's those 'alike' qualities that keep people on the hunt for that sweet one.
The medium bore Strads are great horns to lean into if you're a resistance player and you may find them to beg for a more open, or more free-blowing mp. I find the NY and early Mt. Vernon short wraps to be more responsive and they can be a bit more squirrely in the tuning department if you're not sending them the right message. They do what you tell them too, so choose your words carefully. I believe this is related to the wrap.
Hope this helps some. |
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sunburstbasser Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1194
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I've also read that Bach came up with 72 bell. Maybe on the Bach Loyalist site? I have also read that pre-Elkharts had thinner bells. Does anyone know when they switched to a heavier weight bell?
IIRC, standard production currently:
37
43
72
25
65
38 (cornet, is it still around?)
7 (New York model)
The 25 and 65 don't seem to be made in the numbers the others are. And I have no clue where 229, 239 etc. come from. The earliest Bachs were attempts to make a Besson, then later a better Besson.
It'd be a lot of fun to try out all 72 different bells. See how a 12 plays, for instance! I bet Bach still has the bell mandrills somewhere, though I don't suppose getting a non-standard bell would be feasible nowadays. _________________ Kanstul 1600
Kanstul 1510
Calicchio 1s/2
Selmer 24B Lightweight K-Mod |
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tptmed Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 450 Location: Boston
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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I have a very old Bach (low 200's serial number) and the shop card states it is a # 2 bell and a #2 leadpipe. The bell (and braces) are definitely more Pre-war Besson-like. My personal feeling is the earlier horns have a certain ring to the sound BUT it's only as good as the player and the condition of the horn. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting points here! The pre war Bessons were all bronze. Bach tried to copy them, but did he ever make anything all bronze?
I've got a horn w/ both bell and leadpipe made from the same mandrel as the pre-war Besson! (No bronze though ...) _________________ "And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details |
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puukka Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 494 Location: Krems an der Donau/Austria
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Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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cleanhead77@embarqmail wrote: | The NY Strads and the early Mt Vernon Strads (and Mercedes) are similar in design, with a narrower wrap. |
_Daff wrote: | My NY is a 1937 #10 bell, and feels lighter in the hand than my late Mt. Vernon. |
Thinking of the Benge French Besson clone and your reports, the New York seems to be an overall lightweighted horn, the nickel trim appearing much later. So the today´s "Bach sound" seem to be an Elkhart invention, regular weighted, two braces, nickel siver outer valve slides.
Herbert _________________ Schilke 11C2
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cleanhead77@embarqmail Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 320 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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No, today's Bach is a Mt Vernon invention. When Bach sold to Selmer, the agreement was they would not monkey around with his Stradivarius design. Today's Bach is still basically the late Mt Vernon design by Vincent Bach himself. Since Bach is now a subsidiary of Conn/Steinway, and Bach has passed on, I don't know if that agreement still holds. _________________ So many trumpets and mouthpieces, so little time. |
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