Trumpet Lesson

DSR · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:32 am Post subject:

Hello,

I just had a lesson with the trumpet teacher at our school here. Here is what he told me...I didn't agree with him:

He first told me that when I play I have the mouthpiece in the red of my top lip and to acquire better endurance and tone I would have to place the mouthpiece in the obicularis oris muscles...the white lip membrane. I also play off to the left side. He said that if I moved the mouthpiece way up (like half and half) then I would have "a firm foundation to build on". He said that initally I wouldn't have any range and it would take weeks/months to build up again but in the end it would be worth it. He said that I could likely get a better sound in the center and up higher. I asked him what a better sound was and he said more resonance or body to the sound. As a type IV I don't have lots of resonance (yet), I have a thin sound, and he interprets this as I need to change my placement.
Also, he believes in pedal tones. He thinks I should switch to a deep, wide mouthpiece.

....And he pulls out the Phillip Farkas book....nuff said.

I have seen almost all the trumpet players in this music department play and they are all, without exception, IIIBs or IIIs. If I study with him next year and move my mouthpiece up and practice pedal tones, my playing could be destroyed. Same thing happened to my father.

Any suggestions on how I could handle this? I'm going to take him the encyclopedia and see what he thinks.

Also...maybe if I cold get a list of all the famous players that play in the red???

I don't know of any trumpet teachers around here that wouldn't tell me similar things. I know a Caruso teacher...might be a bit safer to study with him, but he doesn't teach through the university.

This is hard.

Input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brendan

airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Hi...in Canada see Chase Sandborn. Why don't you have an email? I would be glad to send you a response to your dilemma and a picture of the greatest "top red" player IVA I know of. DaveS

PH · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:00 am Post subject:

airdyn,

I have always been told and accepted the idea that the only thing that was verboten in embouchure development was to have the top rim on the red. Since I have already seen every other conventional wisdom "rule" broken by some great player or another I would also love to know who has success in terms of range and endurance while breaking the lod "Don't play on the red" rule.

You guys continue to arouse my curiosity!

Pat

Strawdoggy · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:27 am Post subject:

DSR,

I usually don't wade into this forum unless I see something on the "active forum topics" that I find interesting. I really know nothing about Doc R. - although I do have one of his mouthpieces.

Personal experience - I played on the red in hs and it really held my playing back. Once I got the mp up, things changed for me. It didn't happen overnight. It was a struggle, but it paid off for me.

This may not be the case for you. But, like PH said, playing exclusively on the red of the upper lip is usually a tough way to play. (Reinhardt loyalists may mug me at this point.) Every time I see a young player playing this way, it usually sounds weak and strained. I, too would like to be made a believer and see a picture of a successful player who can play this way. Actually, a picture isn't even necessary - I would believe it if someone told me.

Steve

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:27 am Post subject:

I'm not famous (and you may not even consider me successful), but my mouthpiece is only halfway up on the red of the upper lip. Weak and strained? I could probably kill you with the volume and strength of my sound. (I'd sorta like to try it on Saddam Hussein, tell you the truth.)

Buddy Childers, man, I've seen pictures of him playing and it looks like there's hardly any top lip in the mouthpiece.

I play the same way on bass trumpet, also. Hardly any upper lip in the mouthpiece.

There was a period of time when I misinterpreted something I read in my Reinhardt notes and tried pushing my placement higher, and within a short time had nothing. No range, no endurance, no tone . . . nothing. I was just telling Chris about this last night on the phone (and I've told this on this Forum, also) that I went to Doc in tears and he tried several things to figure out what had gone awry.

Finally, he asked me what type he had "declared" me to be at my first lesson, and I told him IIIB. He immediately told me to move the mouthpiece so far down on my lips that "no white man could ever play that way," and within minutes I had all my range back plus some.

This is the thing that frosts me about traditional teaching methods. Nobody but Doc would've ever found that, I don't think, and he taught me such an important lesson that day.

Anybody who tells you what to do just because they think that's right (without regard for what's right with you) ought to be handcuffed and dragged off to the Incompetent Teachers' Penitentiary for two or three consecutive life sentences.

Can you tell I feel strongly about this?

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

PH · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:28 am Post subject:

Cool!

I'm just enough of an ex-hippie contrarian that I love seeing "conventional wisdom" bite the dust. Any other iconoclasts besides Rich?

DSR · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:37 am Post subject:

Dave,

I have taken lessons from Chase at jazz camp. He is a IIIB. He also lives about 20 hrs away from me. Actually I am playing on one of his mouthpieces at the moment (made my GR Tech.)...this teacher wanted me to discard it and use a deep (toilet bowl) mouthpiece instead.

Sorry...my email address is bjm384@mail.usask.ca ...I'll put it in my profile too.

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2003-03-07 14:40 ]

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

DSR;
You have several options,
1. Do what he says and forget about playing
2. Switch majors so you don't have to study with him
3. Lend him the Encyclopedia and hope that he gets a clue
4. Smile and say OK and then play the way you are supposed to play ( use the toilet-bowel mpc for lessons only)
5. transfer
There are MANY fine brass players that play way off center.
Good Luck,
WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject:

If I understand correctly, Dr. Reinhardt probably would have called this teacher a "page turning idiot." Since I never studied directly from Dr. Reinhardt, I could be wrong, but it sounds as if this teacher, although well-intentioned, misunderstands the need to treat each individual student in the unique manner that is required.

If I understand your situation correctly, DSR, you might be caught between a rock and a hard place. If you're required to take lessons from this teacher as part of your degree program you'll need to follow the suggestions of someone with "more experience," but also need to place the mouthpiece where mother nature dictates.

If you feel this teacher has an open mind, please invite him to visit this forum, read the posts in this topic, and post his questions and concerns about this issue. I am also willing to call or email with him to explain my understanding of this topic, and even forward along some other sources of information regarding embouchure types and mouthpiece placement. Some people seem to take my word over others because I have successfully maneuvered through three degrees (I have a doctorate in music) and teach in higher education, so please feel free to drop your teacher my name and position, if you think it will help (posted below).

Lastly, I am a Type IVA trombonist with an extremely low mouthpiece placement, and it wasn't until I moved my placement that low that my playing took off. It is all a matter of placing the mouthpiece where your teeth, gums, jaw, lips, etc. will allow your embouchure to function most efficiently. It is also, as you know, also a long term approach. Moving your mouthpiece placement higher and more centered might actually make your tone seem more focused, but will not allow your embouchure room to develop properly.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

Dr. David Wilken (Dave W.)
Assistant Professor of Music
Adams State College

_________________
David Wilken
dave@trombone.org
http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken

[ This Message was edited by: Wilktone on 2003-03-07 16:45 ]

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:44 pm Post subject:

Oh, and regarding the Farkas "The Art of Brass Playing." About 10 years after publishing this book Farkas published "A Photographic Study of 40 Virtuoso Horn Players," which shows much more variation in mouthpiece placement that Farkas showed in "TAOBP." I think if Farkas had lived longer he might have revised his theories and brass teachers wouldn't be so eager to change the mouthpiece placement of their students.

Once again, please encourage your teacher to visit us here, drop me a line (my contact information can be found at the following URL), or contact any of the experienced Pivot System teacher/players here.

http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken/contact.html

Good luck!

Dave
_________________
wilktone.com

DSR · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:51 pm Post subject:

"It is also, as you know, also a long term approach."

Yeah...the teacher refered to something Maynard had said about "if one added a whole-tone to their range each year then they would have plenty of range many years down the road." He said if I moved my mouthpiece up, by fourth year I could have a high F. Then I told him I already have a high F....but then he said that my tone would be more focused and I would have "built my foundation on rock...not a sandy beach" (the whole build a strong foundation from the bottom up is a vastly overused cliche). The point is if I switch my placement I would never make it to the high F ever again!

Sure maybe my tone is a bit raw and unfocused right now, and my tonguing is brutal, however, with a little hard work and a break from all this engineering homework I could definately fix it up.

Thanks Dave (W) for your valuable input.

-Brendan

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2003-03-07 16:53 ]

Strawdoggy · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject:

DSR,

Well, if you have a high F, I wouldn't bother switching things around then. I'm not sure how he could tell you that your tone would be better with another placement if he never even heard you play the high F. ????

It was my understanding that maybe you were having problems and he made that recommendation. I was just speaking from personal experience in that I had a similar problem. Like I said in my original post, it may not be right for you to move it up. Never saw or heard you.

Rich,

Thanks for the reference. I know Buddy can play. I also heard some of your clips and know you play very well, too. If you played with Maynard, I'm sure you are pumping out lots of sound.

I guess the question is - why do some people make some embouchures work while others can't? I know we are all physically different, but isn't there more to it?

I hope to be at the improv clinic you are doing at PiCK music. Please bring your PS encyclopedia. I'd like to learn more. It has my aroused my curiosity about this "typing". I'd like to "PiCK" your brain about it, if you don't mind

Please don't kill me with your sound. I have a show to go to that evening!

Steve

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject:

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

DSR;
It is not wise to mess with Mother Nature.
If you play a certain way, then that is the way you are supposed to play.
Unfortunatly, not all private instructors are as open minded as some are in this matter.
Rich, Chris, Dave S., Scotty, Paul,
Any of you remember Doc talking about a mature sound during one of your lessons????????????
I remember the lesson that Doc told me my sound had matured.
This was after I had been studying with him for 7 years and I was in my mid 20's.
DSR;
Since I am also an instructor at a university you can have your teacher contact me off list if he so desires.
I have not jumped through as many hoops as Dave W., but I will join him as a supporting member in the college field for your defense.
WEG
William E. Gibson
Valley City State University
Instructor of Brass
Getzen/Edwards Artist/Clinician

scream · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject:

Hi Brendan,

Your sound is going to be raw for a while and your tonguing is going to be a mess. But, like Bill Gibson said, your sound will mature over time and you'll get your tongue under control too.

I was a product of a well meaning trumpet teacher in college. I went from G's and A's in high school to barely getting a high "C" in college. I was one of his subjects in his doctoral thesis, and of course his thesis was terribly flawed. I turned it all around, to some extent, on my own. But it wasn't until I took my first lesson with Doc that I began to understand how I needed to play.

By the way, I was under the misconceived idea of placing the mouthpiece on the white of the top lip (stupid me, but I'm still learning...I love this forum!!!). I then got to play with Rich Willey and saw his placement. Right on the red....and I can attest to his incredibly robust sound and volume first hand.

Brendan, I agree with Wilktone in suggesting you send your page turning, old school trumpet teacher to this forum and have a read. He just might get it. Regardless, there is a lot of advice to ponder over here. We'll continue to support you in your endeavors. Keep up the hard work.

By the way, I believe Wynton Marsalis is an upstreamer and I THINK Rolf Smedvig is one too. I'm basing it on a picture I saw....

_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA

"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2003-03-08 16:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2003-03-13 17:17 ]

Still Trying · Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:07 am Post subject:

Hey folks,

I've never posted on this forum before because I never took lessons from Doc, and am really ignorant of the knowledge he imparted to his students. However, I just wanted to affirm the assertion that Rich made about being able to kill someone with the volumn and power of his tone. That man can blow! I just attended the clinic he taught in Houston with Bruce Lee. While there I was blessed to find myself the sole object of Rich's attention for about half an hour or so. He shared with me some warmup and developmental excersises he had received from Doc. I've been playing them every day since and I am already getting stronger.

I enjoy reading all the posts that appear in this forum. Thanks you guys. And thank you again, Rich.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:50 am Post subject:

Note to Dave S.—is this an email or an acceptable post?

Jesse! (S.T.)

I'm glad to hear that you're noticing improvement. And it's only just beginning, my friend! Reinhardt's approach has never steered me wrong.

Hey, the way things were going the other day, you could've hung out with me half the day and nobody else would've gotten "short changed."

I think that's because there was somebody in the other room blowing high notes, and that's not necessarily what I do—after gigs on Maynard's band, people would line up to talk to the lead trumpeter, and maybe two or three gray-haired guys would come to talk only to me . . . I understand the numbers and what they mean.

And the ratio is exactly the same with a lot of things, right? 2% of record sales are jazz. 2% of record sales are "classical." What's the huge percentage of record sales in the heavy metal or rap or country genres? Does it mean that those genres are that much better than jazz or "classical?" I think not.

Whoops! Get me off my soapbox! I've got work to do.

Rich

Sorry if this wasn't post-worthy, Dave.

_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

Since there is no hard and fast rule regarding whether or not the mouthpiece must be placed on the white part of the top lip, then I assume that there is also no rule, according to DSR about placing the mouthpiece on the BOTTOM white part of the lip...

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:15 pm Post subject:

Hey, Irving!

I would say that your assumption is correct. I was hoping that somebody would jump in here and take care of your question . . . I don't see any reason to "forbid" an embouchure from having the "white" of the lower lip in the mouthpiece.

On trombone, my placement is very low, and there's tons of the white of my lower lip (I guess you could call that my chin area) under and inside the rim of the mouthpiece.

Some people have extremely thin lips, and I would imagine that the fluctuations in placement (in the red and white . . . provided you're Caucasian, of course) could be endless with these folks.

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Rich;
Jumping on the bandwagon late.
There was a lead trumpet player from Miami and later Orlando who placed very high (definite IIIA).
So, to answer the question if that is the way your teeth, lips, jaw, etc. then that is the way you are supposed to play. Please see one of my other posts about mouthpiece placement.
If it works, then don't fix something that is not broken.
WEG