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trumpelicious
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: alternate fingerings |
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| Can anyone help me understand why especially in the upper range that some alternate fingerings are easier to play. Does it depend on the make of trumpet? Also what are these fingerings for which notes. |
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Juergen
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: |
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As you get higher the partials get closer and closer making the valves less effective. So you could almost everything open if you really wanted to try. The only one I know and use is 3 for an A. However if you are playing the end of Maynard Ferguson's Blue Birdland, his solo, it's an A C#, E, Double C#, A and it can all be played with the 3rd valve down.
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Howie J
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I use the 3rd for A if it's a long note sometimes. I also like 2nd valve high C#. It just locks on my horn. In the last month or so I've found that I have to really work to get almost anything played with the 2nd valve to go out of tune. I would say that each horn has it's quirks like that so you have to know where to use them.
When I was in college I'd use alternate fingerings in rehearsal somedays on slow, easy, section parts just to challenge myself and my ear. 123 for first space F#, 3 for E, 13 for second line G, 23 for tuning C, etc. Try that...they will keep your mind going.
Howie J
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tommy t.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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When improvising in the upper range, I find that using the fingerings from mid range preserves body memory and is a big help in not getting completely lost as to what note I am actually playing.
Stated differently: my mind/body combination knows how to quickly finger any diminished 7 chord in the range at which it appears in Arban where I learned and memorized the patterns based on them. Even though I might be able to play the particular pattern all open in the upper range, it is easier for me to repeat the pattern with the fingerings I memorized in the 1960's than to keep track of where I am in a series of open notes.
When playing written music, I will change fingerings to modify intonation if needed.
I play a WT, so trying to find a work around for problem notes is simply a non-issue on the Bb, but I do have a couple of problem notes on my Benge C and I have in each case found an alternative fingering that works. I think that is very unique to each player and her or his equipment.
Tommy T.
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Jeff_Purtle
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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I use alternate fingerings extensively in Clarke's Technical Studies. I use open for High D and 2 for High C# when I am holding a sustained note because it's slightly better in tune. In my experience it makes more sense to keep the other fingerings the same up to a double C or beyond. Above a High G you could play with any fingering and make the right pitch come-out.
In Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach book he lists some of the fingerings to use with Clarke's Technical Studies. There were more that he gave to students though.
Jeff
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trumpetconfusion
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 59
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: alternate fingerings |
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| trumpelicious wrote: | | Can anyone help me understand why especially in the upper range that some alternate fingerings are easier to play. Does it depend on the make of trumpet? Also what are these fingerings for which notes. |
Some fingerings are easier to play because the overtone resonates between at that frequency for that length of tubing. Each valve has a different length (meaning a different fundamental note). That fundamental note then has partials on top of it. the next one up halfway between low C and 3rd space C. Then the next octave has 3 in between the octave. E G and and kind of b half flat. (each are the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 marks between 3rd space C and high C). This continues and the partials get closer as the range goes up. sometimes the fractions don't line up exactly with the frequencies that make a resonant note. So you then have to try another valve.
These fractions are not perfect on the trumpet because the tube is not a pure cylinder. It has tapered tubing as well. For this reason, different trumpets COULD have different alternate fingerings that work, but only if the two said trumpet are really opposite (i.e. small bore big bell, and big bore, small bell).
Hope this wasn't too confusing. You might have to know physics to completely understand this. |
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Young Man with a Horn
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Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not quite sure why they work but many people favour playing double G and B on 1 and 3 and double C on 2 and 3. |
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BigGuns
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| One guy that I've played with told me that he gets a bigger sound on the high notes when he pushes alternate valves down (as opposed to open or 2) because the air goes through more tubing making it louder. I guess it could sound ok if you don't think about it...but to me that doesn't seem like it would matter...or would it? |
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trumpetconfusion
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Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually the partials are not all equally in tune. Every valve tends to be flat on some notes and sharp on others, especially as you get higher. And when your notes aren't in tune with the other notes you have been playing down low, it doesn't sound as loud. And also the longer tubing of 23 and 13 positions naturally have a slightly deeper sound than the shorter open position. |
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ConnArtist
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpetconfusion wrote: | | And also the longer tubing of 23 and 13 positions naturally have a slightly deeper sound than the shorter open position. |
Learn something new every day... I'm definitely going to try and listen for that!
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tommy t.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| ConnArtist wrote: | | trumpetconfusion wrote: | | And also the longer tubing of 23 and 13 positions naturally have a slightly deeper sound than the shorter open position. |
Learn something new every day... I'm definitely going to try and listen for that! |
Don't stay up too late trying to duplicate that one.
In fact, one way I judge horns when test playing them is to see how nearly the same the timbre of alternate fingers sound. Allowing for slide adjustments to achieve the same pitch, I find that really good horns have very little difference in timbre and my two best instruments, a WT and a Wedgwood, have nearly none at all. On the Wedgie, with a slight extension of the third valve slide, I can play a string of fourth space E's using open, 12, 3, and 123 without an auditor hearing any change. (To watch me go back and forth between open and 123 with no change at all has surprised some very experienced and well informed trumpet professionals. That's one answer to the question "Why spend all that money on a hand-made horn.")
Tommy T.
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Jeff_Purtle
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