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lburrows
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 Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: How does Corp. 3C compare to modern version |
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http://www.bachloyalist.com/mouthpiece/mouthpieces_variations.htm
Regarding the above, can anyone please tell me how the "VINCENT BACH CORP." With shallow period near "P" (1980s-early 1990s) 3C compares to the "VINCENT BACH" Small letters, no "CORP", but with new "font"(2004-present) 3C?
Thanks
Lou
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DCB1
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Not sure if you have looked at this..
http://kanstul.com/mpcJN/Compare/CompareJRFF.html
They have most of them scanned. I'm not sure the difference between them. I know some of the new ones are around the same size as the 7C.... interesting. Kanstul can make you a vintage 3 for a lot less than a NY or MV Bach.
Peace
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lburrows
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Hi DCB1
Thanks very much. Yes, I have seen the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator. Kanstul, told me that the 3C on the comparator is Charley Davis' 3C, but I have no idea what period this is from, apart from it presumably being an Elkhart one. I am looking for a spare to my 1995 one, and there is a corp. one on Ebay, and I wondered whether it would be similar.
Thanks again
Lou
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I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
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Riojazz
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lburrows
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi Riojazz
Thanks, but this is the link which I posted at the top of my inital post.
Thanks anyway.
Lou
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I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
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lburrows
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I should probably make myself clearer.
What I am asking, is if I bought a Vincent Bach Corp. 3C, will it have the same rim profile and cup depth as my 2005 CNC produced Vincent Bach 3C?
Thanks
Lou
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I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
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Riojazz
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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I didn't see your link (he said stupidly).
I used to play a 3C, vintage 1970. There has been a lot written about the variances of this piece over the years, and some mouthpiece manufacturer tables show it might range from 3 to 5 in rim size. Good luck with your question, since the odds are that the answer could be No.
[Edit: I just read some of your older posts, and I see you are very experienced and knowledgeable on the subject of the 3C and its variances, more so than I. All this makes me happy I was able to play on the same piece for so many years without having to replace it. Instead, I moved to a Yamaha 14B4 then to a Warburton 4MC. Best wishes!]
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lionking
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| lburrows wrote: |
What I am asking, is if I bought a Vincent Bach Corp. 3C, will it have the same rim profile and cup depth as my 2005 CNC produced Vincent Bach 3C?
Lou |
I would say properly not!
Bach mouthpieces from the "CORP. period" are very inconsistent.
That's at least what my own experiences tells me.
I have five Bach 3C mouthpiece from different periods as well as a Kanstul Mt. Vernon copy.
They are all different!
I like the "VINCENT BACH CORP." With period that is
deep and far from "P".
It has a slightly flatter rim than the others ones and a little deeper cup. The backbore is also different and slightly larger than the new ones.
I also like the new ones. They feels a little smaller. Somewhat like a "VINCENT BACH CORP" one I have.
So my guess would be that if you buy ten "VINCENT BACH CORP." 3C's they would all be different.
My advise is to do that! And keep the one you like the most and sell all the other ones.
Good luck!
/Leon |
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lburrows
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Riojazz wrote: | I didn't see your link (he said stupidly).
Hi Riojazz
It's fine. I probably shouldn't have put it right at the top of my initial post.
I used to play a 3C, vintage 1970. There has been a lot written about the variances of this piece over the years, and some mouthpiece manufacturer tables show it might range from 3 to 5 in rim size.
Good luck with your question, since the odds are that the answer could be No.
Thanks. I think that an answer of no is very likely.
[Edit: I just read some of your older posts, and I see you are very experienced and knowledgeable on the subject of the 3C and its variances, more so than I].
I am sure that it is out of sheer frustration. I have four cornet 3Cs with the same lettering style, and even my non-playing husband can consistently tell them apart. I can also tell apart my two trumpet 3Cs with the same lettering style. Unbelievably however, I cannot tell my regular cornet 3C (which is most like my two trumpet 3Cs, which vary less than the cornet ones) from my Bach 3B and Bach 3 cornet mouthpieces, by feel alone. Odd, very odd, especially since the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator tool shows how different the rim is on the 3B, to the 3C and 3. If it wasn't for my husband being able to tell the difference between the cornet ones, I would be convinced that I have taught myself to notice minor variations in different 3Cs, as I can't tell the 3C, 3B and 3 apart.
All this makes me happy I was able to play on the same piece for so many years without having to replace it.
Yes, definitely. I have finally decided to stick with using one cornet 3C and one trumpet 3C, that are most like each other, and most like my Bach 3CFL flugel mouthpiece, and Bach 3B and 3 cornet mouthpieces.
Instead, I moved to a Yamaha 14B4 then to a Warburton 4MC.
I imagine that these pieces are very consistent.
Best wishes!
Thanks.
And to you.
Lou
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lburrows
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| lionking wrote: | | lburrows wrote: |
What I am asking, is if I bought a Vincent Bach Corp. 3C, will it have the same rim profile and cup depth as my 2005 CNC produced Vincent Bach 3C?
Lou |
I would say properly not!
Hi lionking
Thanks for this.
Bach mouthpieces from the "CORP. period" are very inconsistent.
That's at least what my own experiences tells me.
If they are more inconsistent than the modern ones, I will definitely stay away from them.
I have five Bach 3C mouthpiece from different periods as well as a Kanstul Mt. Vernon copy.
They are all different!
This doesn't surprise me.
I like the "VINCENT BACH CORP." With period that is deep and far from "P". It has a slightly flatter rim than the others ones and a little deeper cup. The backbore is also different and slightly larger than the new ones.
I haven't tried one of these.
I also like the new ones. They feels a little smaller. Somewhat like a "VINCENT BACH CORP" one I have.
I hate the newest post-strike ones. They have a wider rim and smaller cup diameter than my 2005 ones. That they are like the 1965-1969 first elkhart version, is probably the best proof that Bach have returned to the original specifications. I have been trying to confirm this for ages, so thanks very much for this.
So my guess would be that if you buy ten "VINCENT BACH CORP." 3C's they would all be different.
And for this.
My advise is to do that! And keep the one you like the most and sell all the other ones.
Great advice, but I have decided to stick with what I have, as I have a trumpet one that is pretty similar to my cornet and flugel ones, which is important to me, as I switch between instruments a lot.
Good luck!
/Leon
Thanks.
Thanks again for all your help. You really have been most helpful.
All the best
Lou
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I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
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lburrows
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
I've resurrected this thread, as I am still interested in the Vincent Bach Corp. 3C, but from a different prospective.
I've grudgingly accepted that Bach have been totally incapable of having any level of consistency with their mouthpieces, accept perhaps their very latest ones, which I have found to be much more consistent, but alas consistently too small for me (I am convinced that they are a deliberate return to the specifications of the first Elkhart examples. Was the quoted cup diameter 16.30mm in those days?).
Anyhow, what I would like to find out, is how the Corp. 3Cs compare to the pre-strike CNC produced examples, in terms of rim contour/comfort, tone and playability.
I used to play a 7C, and I always considered my Vincent Bach Corp. 7C to be superior to a my pre-large letter, small letter Vincent Bach 7C, but this may be down to individual mouthpiece differences.
If somebody has played all four, I would really appreciate a opinion on the last four variations on the following link:
http://www.bachloyalist.com/mouthpiece/mouthpieces_variations.htm
Thanks
Lou
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I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL |
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Riojazz
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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When you get done finding this info, I hope you'll write an article on Bach mouthpieces, and the moderators make it a sticky.
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Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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DCB1
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Are you talking about the Bach 7's? If so I have played 4 different pieces...
1) New York
2) Mt. Vernon
3) Corp.
4) Corp
They are all different. The rims inside and out (including shape, bite and high point), cup shape and depth and inside diameter.... scary stuff.
I have not played the newer pieces.
If you are not talking about the 7C... just ignore this info.
Peace
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lburrows
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| DCB1 wrote: | Are you talking about the Bach 7's? If so I have played 4 different pieces...
1) New York
2) Mt. Vernon
3) Corp.
4) Corp
They are all different. The rims inside and out (including shape, bite and high point), cup shape and depth and inside diameter.... scary stuff.
I have not played the newer pieces.
If you are not talking about the 7C... just ignore this info.
Peace |
Hi DCB1
I was talking about the 3C, but re-reading my post, I see that I confused the issue, by talking about the 7C as well. I'm sorry about that.
Anyhow, it is how the different vintages compare/contrast, rather than individual sizes, that I am interested in, so your experiences of the 7C, are equally useful.
Thanks very much for sharing.
All the best
Lou
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I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
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B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
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DCB1
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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My bad....
I have 2 Mt. Vernon 7C's and they are the same. Now the 7, 7B have different rims.
Peace
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I have a Bach trumpet 3C mouthpiece and a Bach cornet 3C mouthpiece. The cornet piece is a CORP. with the large period, and the trumpet piece is a CORP. with the small period. They are so much alike that I can tell no difference, but that's because I played the trumpet piece for many years, and when I wanted a cornet 3C, I looked at used ones until I found one that matched the trumpet 3C I had. They are different from others I've tried, in that the cup to rim transition is nearly vertical for a millimeter or two before the curvature of the cup begins. Other 3C's I tried (all newer ones) didn't have this near vertical transition from rim to cup. Looking at the Kanstul comparator, the ones I have look closer to the Bach New York profile. They are very good mouthpieces for me, although I think I'd like just a little more cup depth.
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lburrows
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DCB1 wrote: | My bad....
Hi DCB1
It is me, not proof reading my posts carefully enough, before sending them.
I have 2 Mt. Vernon 7C's and they are the same. Now the 7, 7B have different rims.
Thanks very much for this.
All the best
Lou
Peace |
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I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
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Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
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lburrows
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | I have a Bach trumpet 3C mouthpiece and a Bach cornet 3C mouthpiece. The cornet piece is a CORP. with the large period, and the trumpet piece is a CORP. with the small period. They are so much alike that I can tell no difference, but that's because I played the trumpet piece for many years, and when I wanted a cornet 3C, I looked at used ones until I found one that matched the trumpet 3C I had. They are different from others I've tried, in that the cup to rim transition is nearly vertical for a millimeter or two before the curvature of the cup begins. Other 3C's I tried (all newer ones) didn't have this near vertical transition from rim to cup. Looking at the Kanstul comparator, the ones I have look closer to the Bach New York profile. They are very good mouthpieces for me, although I think I'd like just a little more cup depth. |
Hi Dale
I had to do the same thing. I have tried quite a few cornet 3Cs, and have settled on the one most like my trumpet 3C, but they are still different. In the new year, I am having Jim New at Kanstul, create a cornet version of my trumpet 3C, from the cup end of their previous scan of my trumpet 3C, their B10 cornet backbore, and a recent scan they have done of the blank of a spare 3C cornet mouthpiece.
I have found that I like the post large letter, CNC produced small letter 3C, made from 2004 until the Bach strike. The post strike mouthpieces are apparently a return to the first elkhart specification, and have a smaller cup diameter and wider rim.
All the best
Lou
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I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL |
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ewetho
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| lburrows wrote: |
I have found that I like the post large letter, CNC produced small letter 3C, made from 2004 until the Bach strike. The post strike mouthpieces are apparently a return to the first elkhart specification, and have a smaller cup diameter and wider rim. |
I had bought a CNC 1C (before the strike production) and then a 1B and 1D and measured them out with caliper and were VERY VERY close to spec listed in the brochure. After the strike I bought an new 1C and it was by veneer caliper a 2C??????? Something changed.
Outside dimensions of the rim and backbore were withing .0001" but the vup was smaller and exactly a 2C. This is compared to several 3C's 1 1/4C's, 1 1/2C's, 2 1/2C, and even several 7C plus Schilke's. All spec'd good with the same technique but the new one was OFF!!! VISIBLY!!!
Go figure.
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lburrows
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| ewetho wrote: | | lburrows wrote: |
I have found that I like the post large letter, CNC produced small letter 3C, made from 2004 until the Bach strike. The post strike mouthpieces are apparently a return to the first elkhart specification, and have a smaller cup diameter and wider rim. |
I had bought a CNC 1C (before the strike production) and then a 1B and 1D and measured them out with caliper and were VERY VERY close to spec listed in the brochure. After the strike I bought an new 1C and it was by veneer caliper a 2C??????? Something changed.
Outside dimensions of the rim and backbore were withing .0001" but the vup was smaller and exactly a 2C. This is compared to several 3C's 1 1/4C's, 1 1/2C's, 2 1/2C, and even several 7C plus Schilke's. All spec'd good with the same technique but the new one was OFF!!! VISIBLY!!!
Go figure. |
Hi ewetho
What I have never understood, is how the Bach 7C, Bach 5C, and Bach 3C etc. came to be larger than than specified, but not the 1 1/2C.
i.e.
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Bach-Schilke%20mpc%20chart.html
The Kelly and Curry sizes are pretty consistent with the above link:
http://www.kellymouthpieces.com/specs.asp?mp=trumpet
http://www.currympc.com/v.php?pg=449
As far I understand it, the wearing of manual cutters, meant that the mouthpieces became gradually larger until the cutters were replaced again. When Bach switched to CNC technology, I understand that they made their mouthpieces deliberately larger to better compliment the old larger than specified examples, which had became most common, since the mouthpieces were only the specified size, immediately after replacing the worn cutters.
This would make sense, but why did the 1 1/2C not end up larger than specified? Maybe it did, but the 1 1/2C measured on the Dallas music link, was one made with new cutters, and Kelly, Curry etc., have considered the original 17mm as being a better size for the 1 1/2C.
Anyhow, as far as I am aware, post strike, Bach have scanned a set of mouthpieces kept by Vincent Bach as being a perfect example of each elkhart produced model. This therefore means a return to the original specifications. I have tried the new 3C and they are very consistent, however consistently very small compard to what I am used to. 16.30mm seems about right.
I am amazed that all the ones which you have measured match the specifications. I have five (three post large letter, small letter 3Cs made pre-strike, one pre large letter, small letter 3C without the corp, and one new old stock one, bought post strike, with a much bolder version of the pre-strike lettering style, which is different to the pre-strike and post-strike ones I have tried. I've never seen this lettering style before.) cornet 3Cs, and believe me they feel very different. The strange lettering style one feels large, the oldest one small, and the others just different to each other. Maybe they do all measure the same, and only feel different owing to differences in the rim contour, but I am pretty sure that they would not. Possibly the three in the same lettering style could have the same cup diameter. Anyhow, I am pretty sure that none of them, except perhaps the oldest one, are as small as 16.30mm.
The 1C and 2C on the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator look very similar cup shape wise. Probably your new 1C is a mislabelled 2C.
All the best
Lou
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I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL |
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