Are GR mouthpieces more efficient??

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:51 pm Post subject:

TopGun --

The sound is pretty darn good, except with the models I've tried I couldn't "turn it up to 11" the way I can on my Bach. I was impressed enough that I will keep looking, though, and would even consider getting custom work done.

Irving --

I fully understand your reluctance to buy a mouthpiece you've never played. (Watch it though -- that sort of attitude doesn't play very well around here!) I wouldn't have been interested, either, except for it happens that a colleague of mine had some for me to try out. I was a lot more impressed than I expected.

I must take issue with your dismissal of the whole issue of compu-balancing. I agree that much of what GR has done is simply semantics and craftsmanship, but on the issue of computer design I think what we are seeing is the thin edge of the wedge. Computers are now powerful enough to perform meaningful acoustical modelling of mouthpieces. I suspect that in the coming years we will see a lot more of this as manufacturers (of both mouthpieces and instruments) seek something more elegant and precise than trial-and-error in their design processes. I think the idea of using a computer program to design a mouthpiece so that all the parameters are taken into account at once makes a lot of sense, and I don't believe any of the other manufacturers (Yamaha included) do this. Yet.

There is a lot of hype on TH and elsewhere, most of it completely undeserved. I happen to think that GR mouthpieces may be an exception.

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

NE,

When I can sense a meaningful imrovement between a mouthpiece that has been "compu-balanced" and a mouthpiece that conversely would have to be "imbalanced" then I'll eat my hat. So far, none of my colleagues are playing GR's, and I have yet to even see one, so I couldn't say that they are or aren't an improvement.

While you MAY have a point about computers aiding mouthpiece design, that in itself doesn't mean that the mouthpieces will play better...a certain manufacturer that claims that his mouthpieces are built with "constant pitch center" (if you play another brand, than sorry, your mouthpiece is constantly uncentered) hasn't been enthusiastically acclaimed by all trumpet players as the greatest innovation since the valve. And on it goes...

Anything can be improved, theoretically at least. With all of the "computer technology" available, you must wonder why it is that people are still playing Bach trumpets, designed in the 1950's? That's 50 year old technology! This design should have been computer-enhanced decades ago...but, nobody so far has managed to pull it off. If you believe that the future of mouthpiece and instrument design will be computer based, than by all means, spend your $100 for a new fangled mouthpiece. I myself will jump on the bandwagon when the top symphony players change over. But until then, I'll continue to play on my "unbalanced"mouthpiece.

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:00 am Post subject:

My experience with mpcs made by GR, is that they are the easiest with which to maintain a uniform tone quality thoughout all registers and dynamic levels. I can get the kind of edge I'm looking for with a Curry, Marcinkiewicz, Jet-Tone, Parduba, one or two Bachs and probably many other brands, but the GR (actually NB) does it the easiest of any that I've tried so far. The particular NB that I use also plays low G's very easily and with as fat a tone as a low C. The ease with which I could produce the low G initially, and the sound that I got with it, was one of two or three factors that got me started with this mpc to begin with.

Anyone with good chops can play any mpc and probably get very close to their ideal sound, if not right away than eventually, if he stays with the mpc long enough. IMO, it's really a no brainer if one mpc gets this sound easier than any other.

I guess it could be said that the GR is a very efficient mpc in that respect.

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-04-05 21:35 ]

X3L · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:34 am Post subject:

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:25 am Post subject:

Irving --

It's pretty obvious that nothing anybody says is going to change your mind about this, although you may be interested to know that some of the "major symphony guys" have tried them and like them. I can relate. I was pretty skeptical myself, until I tried them. I don't think they're the golden key. I haven't even found one I like enough to drop the money on. BUT -- they are astoundingly efficient, and there are several dealers with a return policy.

JGulyas · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:27 am Post subject:

I've been playing for a fairly decent amount of time, and know what sound I like the best. The first thing I've noticed about the GR mpcs I've played is how easy it is to stay in the center of pitch. I didn't even have to manipulate my embouchure to find the center on any of Gary's mpcs. Complete different story with the gobs of other mpcs I've played, and the same holds true with the Monette mpcs I played. While the Monettes are much easier to play (to me) than a typical mpc, I still had to "hunt" for the pitch center with them. With the GR it's just right there, damn near instantly with no "hunting" for the center. Granted some notes I have to hunt for, but it's not a very difficult hunt at all. I wouldn't hesitate at all recommending them to anyone! Even my private teacher, who's played the same Bach 1 1/2C for at least 13 years (as long as I've known him) has started to switch over to the GR. They are top shelf and well worth the $115!

John
_________________
All the Best,

John

US Navy Bandsman 1996-2010 (Trumpet; Audio Engineer)
Mpc - Kanstul/Monette B6, Hammond Design custom "JG"
Bb - Yamaha 6335HGSII
C - Eastman ETR530
Picc - NoName Chinese

JGulyas · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:28 am Post subject:

NE,

Just out of curiosity, what's your main mpc and which of the GRs have you tried?

John
_________________
All the Best,

John

US Navy Bandsman 1996-2010 (Trumpet; Audio Engineer)
Mpc - Kanstul/Monette B6, Hammond Design custom "JG"
Bb - Yamaha 6335HGSII
C - Eastman ETR530
Picc - NoName Chinese

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

Hey John,

I am just guessing that you are a satisfied GR mouthpiece owner. Sorry if my comments regarding a mouthpiece I never tried offended you. But any sort of blanket statements about mouthpiece efficiency can't be left unchallenged. One man's gem is another man's cookie cutter. No one mouthpiece manufacturer can claim superiority over any other. My caveat to those interested in this brand, or any other, is to try them first, preferibly for a couple of weeks, since new mouthpieces have a nasty habit of becoming old mouthpieces fast. That is to say, when the honeymoon wears off, you are left face to face with the same technical limitations that you had before.

Another reason to try out this mouthpiece (or any other) before buying it is the simple question of comfort. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt for argument's sake. GR mouthpieces are simply the most efficient mouthpieces ever made. What if the rim is uncomfortable? Is it still considered efficient? It would be silly to use an efficient mouthpiece that cuts your lip, now wouldn't it?

I have long ago given up the search for the perfect mouthpiece, realizing that it doesn't exist. I can only try to improve by practice. If your new mouthpiece has helped your playing, then more power to you. Will this brand help everybody's playing? I think a person can only answer that after having put the mouthpiece through a trial.Personally, claims and hype turn me off. That, coupled with an expensive price tag, not to mention a no-trial policy is why I won't be buying a GR.

JGulyas · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:09 am Post subject:

smithwatkinsguy · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:30 pm Post subject:

Gillestar, I don't know if ANY mouthpiece is more "efficient" but I think it's just how the mouthpiece fits you. Go to a shop and pick whatever mouthpiece fits you the best, but from what I understand, GR makes a killer mouthpiece! Just not for me

_________________
Aaron G.
Bach Strad Bb 37G bell/Stork 1
Bach Strad C 229G bell, 25H pipe/Stork 1
Rhode Island All-State Orchestra
The Hartt School of Music

Castle Bravo · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Apr 2003 Posts: 542

"....Just wondering....physics and math may be one thing....but I think playing a trumpet is another thing....are GR mouthpieces really more efficient.....and will I be able to tell in my playing.....advanced intermediate player here..."
_________________

YES! They ended my mpc safari....

tptscream · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 8:00 pm Post subject:

I've used a GR piece (actually two) for about a year and a half, in all situations from orchestral to quintet to Primal Therapy. They have allowed me to play with complete worry-free confidence, more so than with my Curry, Wick, Marc., Stork, (you get the idea). Does efficency mean just blowing without fighting the piece and being able to concentrate on the music instead? If it does, for me, then, they're more efficent. Thanks Gary and Brian!!!

mateoshaw · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 9:56 pm Post subject:

I'll give a solid GR testimonial...

I have never been an equipment guy. I've been ( and still am ) a believer that all the time you spend looking for the perfect equipment, you could be practicing and getting better faster and in a more productive matter. Untill a month ago, I had played the same horn and mouthpiece for the last 6 years. I tried other mouthpieces and horns, but everything seemed to fall short.. Partly because I had been playing a specific setup for so long that anything else felt awkward and even if there was improvement, it was very little and not worth the trouble of acclimating myself to something new. This included just about everything out there, mouthpieces and horns.

A few trusted friends told me about GR mouthpieces, so I decided to give them a call. Brian sent me their questionaire and we talked about my specific likes and dislikes with my current setup. I purchased a 66M and I couldn't believe the difference. I was sincerely compensating for my equipment. I didn't have to bend certain notes anymore, I could get around easier, and my two biggest complaints: absence of low overtones in my sound, and bottoming out on really extended solos were addressed.

They are worth the investment, and after trying out Monettes and Bob Reeves ( both considered upper end mouthpiece makers ) I feel they are the only mouthpieces where you can feel a huge difference immediately. Guys I have gigged with since then can hear the difference as well, most of them not being trumpet players. Definitely check them out.

-Matt-

Castle Bravo · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Apr 2003 Posts: 542

Bartok · Veteran Member Joined: 11 Nov 2002 Posts: 456

I've tried 'em all. I think GR mouthpieces are very efficient. But, at the sacrifice of sound....which is bright and harsh. (for orchestral playing, which I do)

So, although they have a good feeling and nice resistance, that's not enough. Isn't sound the most important thing when you're playing an instrument???

Right now, I've found a Laskey which is efficient as any GR I've tried, and it has a full sound as well.

......efficiency isn't everything. Sounding GREAT is!

allofyougetalife · Veteran Member Joined: 19 Mar 2003 Posts: 207

Nice Post Bartok!

AOYGAL

GR Tech · Regular Member Joined: 29 Mar 2002 Posts: 54

"I've tried 'em all. I think GR mouthpieces are very efficient. But, at the sacrifice of sound....which is bright and harsh. (for orchestral playing, which I do)

So, although they have a good feeling and nice resistance, that's not enough. Isn't sound the most important thing when you're playing an instrument???

Right now, I've found a Laskey which is efficient as any GR I've tried, and it has a full sound as well.

......efficiency isn't everything. Sounding GREAT is!"

Bartok,

Thank you for the opportunity to educate. We appreciate your thinking, although, we would like to explain a few things to you regarding your experiences with GR mouthpieces.

We doubt that you have tried all the GR mouthpieces, we have over 6000 designs and 1232 models as of yesterday. We are constantly changing and adapting to accommodate all trumpet players no matter what venue they choose. We have learned a great deal in just the past 8 days.

In the past 8 days we have worked with some of the best trumpet players around. They have over 50 years experience between them in the professional orchestra. One of them spent years playing right next to Malcolm in the studio and played as effortlessly as I have seen. Each professional had different requirements and needs to produce the optimum sound and efficiency. These are all great players with different goals and requirements. No mouthpiece requirements were even close yet they do similar work, horns were somewhat similar, and all were professionals. Why? See GR's 3 Rules of Brass Playing.

We would like take the opportunity explain your experiences with GR mouthpieces. You like the resistance and efficiency but not the sound. The resistance and efficiency is a function of the math. The sound is a function of the fit between the player, mouthpiece, and horn. Your lips are probably impinged due to the alpha angle; they are not free to vibrate. You probably use greater lip penetration and this has another function that can cause your attacks to be harsh and sound more edgy. Why? Because your lip penetration reduces cup volume, furthermore, the cup volume is related to the first natural frequency of the mouthpiece that sets up the harmonics of the trumpet. Simply you need less alpha angle and more cup volume to accommodate your lip penetration and allow the lips to vibrate freely. You probably tried the MX, L or VC (L and VC have the same alpha). From history and digitizing we know the Laskey mouthpieces have lower alpha angles and more relief, therefore, they match your face. I suggest you stay with them. Just for your information we have worked with Dennis Najoom for the past year and designed another line of symphonic mouthpieces that features a lower alpha angle. They will not fit everybody but they sure sound great when Dennis plays them. For contact information check out http://www.najoom.com we are not sure if the website has been updated yet.

At GR Technologies we are always thinking and working to accommodate different players and different needs. Our competitors produce many more mouthpieces than we can, although, maybe in the future we will have a design that accommodates your needs.
_________________
GR Tech

linkera · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 20

Hi All,

I bought Bruce Lee's first NB mouthpiece at a trumpetfest in Dublin GA 3 year's ago. The mouthpiece played well but
it wasn't perfect, I bit the bullet and ordered another. I play on a WT and Gary wanted me to try a particular backbore
on the new piece. He said, "I assure you it will light the WT up." It does...I personally think this is the best piece I'v
ever played on. By the way, I let a friend of mine try the other piece and he bought it on the spot (full price). I don't want to ramble on and bore everybody, but there is something to these mouthpieces and Bruce Lee was a pleasure...
including lending me one of his personal mouthpieces until mine was made. Keep up the good work guys.

Allan Linker

1hxchops · Regular Member Joined: 20 Aug 2002 Posts: 64

Bartok, I have played the Najoom mouthpieces and they do indeed have a lower alpha angle on them. They may be some thing to check out. You can contact Dennis at http://www.najoom.com. Everything in a mouthpiece starts at the rim. Change the alpha angle a little and it makes a world's difference.

[ This Message was edited by: 1hxchops on 2003-06-09 11:29 ]

pushyred · Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:25 am Post subject:

Goodness! It always amazes me how riled up people can get over differences of opinions on mouthpieces. Its just a mouthpiece...and its just my opinion... but unlike every other mouthpiece I've ever tried, I've never once felt the need to open up a backbore or drill out a throat on a GR mouthpiece. To me this says that they have the "balance" perfected. How they arrived at that balance really doesn't matter to me. There are lots of sales pitches out there; one just has to be an intelligent consumer and use what works for you. My H3C seems to have a pleasant enough sound to get me by in orchestra and quite frankly I've received many complements on my sound since switching.

There seemed to be undertones in previous posts that perhaps Bruce Lee's responses regarding GR mouthpieces might be somewhat biased because he sells them. Having been to his house and delt with him directly I can say that his main goal when dealing with any player is to help them find the answers for which they are looking. Even if this means not making a sale. And I'd be willing to bet money that you will not find a negative post about Bruce Lee from anyone who has actually delt with him directly. Hmmmm sounds a lot like someone attacking a GR mouthpiece who's never tried one.

So just play what works for you and don't forget to breath!