It seem like there are some topics/posts missing

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Last night I couldn't get on TH.

Today there is a bunch of stuff missing.

What happened?

Chris

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:23 am Post subject:

Yeah, I just got on and you're right . . . a bunch of stuff is missing, over a week's worth. I keep saying to myself that I'm going to archive our stuff, and keep forgetting.

Does anybody here archive the Doc Reinhardt forum posts?

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

Same thing happened to me last nite. The lost files are a concern. However if some of my posts are deleted it might be just as well (lol).

Chris, that "wig" embouchure probably won't work for me either. Did get some high register statics, but no substantial notes. The kind of statics I got kinda remind me of those that I got on my initial, failed attempt to play the Stevens embouchure years back.

Experimentation is fun though. I did try to tweak my type lll standard embouchure a little the other nite just to see if I could play it a little less receded. Of course I've done that before too. I don't know, those jaw manipulations are harder to deal with than moving the mouthpiece set-up on the chops. Again, I really don't need to alter my type lll, but it's always interesting.

I never get statics or cyclonics on my type lll though I can play fairly softly upstairs.

Lee

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Its a shame about the posts, we had a nice little chat going.

What you told me you got with the "wig" is just how this guy said it starts off. If I where you, I'd keep fooling with it.

That was the same embouchure that John Madrid used to play his high notes.

Chris

airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Hi to all! One of the posts lost was what Doc told me about the "wig" embouchure. Too bad. I am afraid to post any more for fear that it will be lost. Who has the authority to delete? Who has access to the files with such power?
While I'm here, let me vent a little. What I like about the Forum would take up much space. What I don't like about it is this: personal eMails being posted! The difference between a post that is about a Reinhardt related topic and someone's idea of communicating with someone else is what I am talking about. I am sending all of my students to this site and wish for them to LEARN and not see a lot of "spam, wham, no thank you, maam" or personal stuff...isn't there an eMail icon at the bottom of each post to respond? Let's use it. I do.
Thanks,
Dave S.

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-04-04 09:15 ]

BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:26 am Post subject:

This has only happened one other time since I've been around here on the Herald. Maybe we need somebody who will have time to archive posts weekly, a forum historian. Any volunteers? I've noticed that when I copy an entire page into a Microsoft Word document it retains the original page formatting (or appearance).

I have the authority to delete individual posts or entire topics here within the Reinhardt Forum, but that is not what happened recently. If you look under the forum called trumpetherald.comyou'll see more about this recent loss of information. (I have exercised the judgment to delete a few posts that had nothing positive to contribute to the conversation, and I have also posted "alerts" that previous posts contained opinions having nothing to do with what Reinhardt taught.)

Regarding the posting of "personal emails," yes, Dave, you have a point. I think the best thing we can do is strive to avoid posting such things ourselves, and also to ignore such posts, and eventually people will catch on and stop doing this.

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

Doc Maynard · Regular Member Joined: 01 Jan 2003 Posts: 66

I thought I said something wrong and upset somebody, and that's why they deleted some of my posts. It's nice to know it was a technical "glitch".

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

About the time when Trumept Herald recently lost much of it's memory I came down with my annual migraine headache and a few of my brain cells went out the window too. Since we're all back online can someone re-post the formation of that "wig"embouchure again? I think Chris said it involved rolling the lower lip out radically.

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:48 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure it's such a great idea to have directions on the Reinhardt forum for developing this freakish "wig" embouchure.

Doc told me in no uncertain terms that type switching would tear down an embouchure quicker than anything. I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, and this is probably no exception, but I don't see how describing how to develop such a peculiar embouchure (a form of type switching I'm guessing) is appropriate on the Reinhardt forum.

Too many people, it would appear, are looking for instant gratification. Trumpet is not about instant gratification. Trumpet is about delayed gratification.

Granted, when we were first starting out we would occasionally stumble on things that would make our progress shoot forward. But as we progress farther, it's more about slow and steady progress.

My embouchure on trumpet (I came back to trumpet in October 1995) has been getting better every year. Doc's idea of a "developed embouchure" and one that's still developing have given me hope . . . way more hope than some high-note gimmickry. The G's have been coming much more often, and for a guy who's looking to be a jazz player who can occasionally play a lead book, this indicates to me that my embouchure is developing correctly. I don't want to take any chances when my slow progress is moving in the right direction.

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

Hey Rich,

Your observation noted. The odd embouchure Chris described was just for my general reference. I am very comfortable however in "type jumping". Am a standard type lll making remarkable progress on a probable type 4A. Have been a trumpet player for the past 39 years and know the in's and out's of my standard type lll about as well as one could. If indeed all I wanted to do was play a bit of lead and some jazz my existing standard type embouchure certainly does suffice. BUT, to play this embouchure beyond a high G on a regular basis is only something a fool would try.

Seems there can be exceptions to some rules. If it weren't for the good Doctor I wouldn't have even known about the various types. I can't help but think Donald Reinhardt would be open to any or all forms of embouchure discussion. If indeed an embouchure can be universally discredited like say the "smile" formation, then any discussion of that shouldn't be a threat. The general trumpet playing public could at least get a chance to let it's views surface in order to show the invalidity of the practice.

More and more trumpet players are trying multiple embouchure formations mostly without ill effects. Generally speaking, I agree that keeping just one embouchure is usually better, but we ought not rule out such possibilities that might prove effective even if the practicioners are in the minority.

You wouldn't know how much happier I am now that I can easily "sit" on very musical sounding double C's and BETTER. Such notes are impractical and downright dangerous on my older chop formation (much as I do like that embouchure).

Lee

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Lee,

Without even seeing you play, I can say one thing for sure......

If you where Doc's student, he take your new "foward jaw" embouchure and teach you how to play ALL OVER THE HORN on it.

Doc always said that the "right" embouchure was the one with the most natural compression.

He would take your double C's on your new embouchure, and teach you through relaxation, and your pivot how to get down to low F#.

You seem like very nice guy who has studied embouchure quite a lot. I also want you to know that I always look foward to your posts, and as far as I'm concerned you are always welcome on this forum.

But there is one COLD, HARD FACT you must know about the Pivot System..........DOC NEVER WOULD ALLOW A STUDENT TO USE TWO DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT EMBOUCHURES!!!

Yes there where divided types, but to completely different SETTINGS.......NEVER.

Chris

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

And while I'm on the subject...

Of course anyone can see the wisdom in the avoidance of putting irrelevent topics on a dedicated forum. Ie; I don't want to read baseball scores here and you don't want to hear about any of my ex-wives (two, in fact).

I do get more than a little concerned about a perceived "witchunt" however against some important discussion. If we try to isolate ourselves too strictly to the exact requirements of the "Pivot System" we can easily stifle any useful, informative and creative science.

Take Dr. Reinhardt for instance. I find his works unbelievably fascinating. His writings are already standing the test of time. This, however doesn't make them flawless, nor does it make us "Bad boys and girls" for challenging certain assumptions.

Example: In the field of Psychology, I believe that there isn't much serious study of Sigmund Freud anymore. {Am a little uneasy about comparing Reinhardt to Freud because Reinhardt was much brighter in his respective field} AND the reason we don't study Freud is because we've had time to analyze, criticize, accept and/or reject his studies. The result of this is (probably!) a better form of psychology.

If we don't allow ourselves the lattitude to debate certain assumptions of Dr. Reinhardt's, then we are really doing a diservice to the great man. Unlike others before him, much (not all) of Dr. Reinhardt's studies are still accepted. They will continue to stand the test of time so long as we show our respect and stay open minded. If this forum becomes so strict (and I think that it is becoming that way) that we aren't allowed to debate related topics... Well at that point Rich Willey just might find that he is reading this forum all by himself. How will that serve future potential students of Dr. Reinhardt???

Lee

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I agree with you Lee,

I think that discussing things like the "wig" embouchure are healthy as long as it is made known that Doc would never condone such a thing for all around brass playing.

"All around brass playing" was a phrase I heard Doc use many times. He was not so much interested in turning out "high note specialists" as he was in making you a good solid CONSISTENT all around brass player.

His goal was that you should be able to cover any gig with the needed range, endurance, technique and MUSICALITY. As a matter of fact, when I would get to obsessed with high notes he would holler at me and tell that I had huge holes in my playing that I needed to fill. Almost 25 years later I wish I had listened to him more.

It seems like every kid I run into can play a double C now. But how many can play music? how many can swing, or play any kind of decent jazz ( even on a Bb blues) ?..... Not many I'm afraid.

The Pivot System is a means for one to master the mechanics of the instument so they can go out and play music, not just high notes.

Of all the guys with great chops that came in and out of Doc's studio do you know who Doc admired the most?.....Ray Wetzel. Ray was definitely not a "screamer", at best he had around an A. But Doc said that he was an amazing "all around brass player".

Chris

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

Hey Chris,

Interesting post of yours as usual. You may think I have nothing better to do on a Monday, but no. It's simply too hot in the sun to do any real work here in CA.

Yes, I've known since probably 1974 that the good Doctor wouldn't have approved of multiple embouchure systems. At that time I was in college at a New England University. Back then there were some REALLY heated live dcussions among trumpet players regarding different Chop Doctors. One small crowd studied with Reinhardt. Another with Roy Stevens and the largest crowd went down to Carmine Caruso's. They (Caruso cult followers) were the noisiest in the practice room what with their long tones, metronomes and foot tapping. Few of them took their real trumpet studies as seriously as they should have. The Applied trumpet teacher was/is Walter Chesnut, A GREAT TEACHER of over-all trumpet players. I too wished I'd taken his teachings more seriously so long ago.

Most of the "Cultists" I described above were harmless though we had some fierce grafitti wars going on in the walls of the practice rooms. Such as:

"All Roy Stevens has is a lot of brass players money"

"What does a violinist know about the trumpet?" A slight on Caruso.

This was long before the internet of course. The maintenence crew had to work overtime to clean up the mess...

I don't think that MY use of an alternative embouchure has any overall detrimental effect on ME. In fact it has given me some profitable insight into the physical characteristics of the physical brass playing types.

Give you a for instance: As a type lll standard downstream player most of my life i had no idea why some players would ever want to play dry (lip) until I tried a move up to lVA. Now just like the Doctor I wouldn't advocate anyone making a dry lip formation a first choice, BUT there does seem to be at least some positive aspects to the dry lip formation on a type lVA. And I now know this from first hand experience. It's not something theoretical, I can understand this tactic as a personal experience.

Another: As a type lVA, I see the benefit of using a large inner rim mouthpiece. Doesn't Roy Roman use a real bucket of a piece? Apparently for many of the upstream types the goal is to increase flexibility and sound. High range is a given in many cases, now the challenge for the type lVA is to get fluid and sonorous. Again, I know this from personal experience. It's not an absolute of course. Wasn't Bud Brisbois an upstream? He had described his mouthpiece as being a tad on the small size.

Jeez, until your (Chris's) post came through I thought i was bringing beer to a mormon wedding...

Lee

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 1:30 pm Post subject:

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

The concern about limiting discussion is that it could lead to a limiting of the audience itself. I find that brass players who have worked on Reinhardt's studies more perceptive of important issues than most of the general playing community. A dogmatic approach concerning small details of what can be said and what can't be said tends to devalue the the whole process. This can alienate both those with useful contributions and those that could stand to learn something.

This tendency to be hypercritical makes me wonder if the process here is to make certain educational methods available OR if those followers of Dr. Reinhardt's are seeking to maintain a closed end cult. Apparently anyone who's views or experiences are not in exact accordance with these proclaimed "High Priests of the Trumpet" is considered an improper participant on the forum. As such, I expect that by bringing these truths to the table that i will be censored from the discussion. Save yourself the trouble, I will censor myself. This is my last post here.

That's the way i see it.

Lee

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I hate to see you go Lee.

Please E-mail me sometime.

Chris

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:00 pm Post subject:

As Ben Franklin is reputed to have said, "If we don't stand for something, we'll fall for anything." (I think it was Ben Franklin.)

From my vantage point as moderator of this forum, it would seem that people sometimes try to make me look like the bad guy when I'm merely trying to do my job.

What amazes me is the number of personal emails I get congratulating me for "sticking to my guns" and not letting this forum turn into the Opinion Forum. (I wish more people would post them here where everybody else can see them—oh, well.)

We're here to find out about the teachings of Doc Reinhardt, that's the way I read it.

If the discussion has nothing to do with finding out about the teachings of Doc Reinhardt, I will usually jump in and say something. If the person generating such a discussion wants to take his marbles and go home, that's fine with me (provided he had all his marbles to begin with).

In my opinion, what "devalues the whole process" is people with an agenda contrary to the purpose of the forum. We've had a few of the antagonists here with their negative and destructive comments, and I've deleted their posts. Is that my job? In keeping with the stated purpose of this forum, I'd say that yes, it is my job.

And calling followers of Reinhardt a closed end cult? I don't know about most of you, but I wandered through a maze of ignorance (dozens of lousy teachers) before finally arriving at 1720 Chestnut Street, and I'm glad that was the "last house on the block" for me. If you had as many bad years as I did before being shown the truth, the way, and the light about brass playing, maybe you'd understand my sentiments regarding keeping this forum as free from outside contaminants as possible.

I have never proclaimed myself a "High Priest of the Trumpet" and have said many times that I'm probably not the most qualified person to moderate this forum. But I am doing this job to the best of my ability, and when somebody makes a bitter and caustic exit like we just saw, I'm thinking that maybe I'm actually doing a good job.

I hope no severe injuries were inflicted due to the effect created when the door slams into one's backside on the way out.

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I can see Rich's point in as much as we don't want people loging on here and seeing the "wig" stuff (I know I was the one who put it on) and thinking that its Reinhardt.

The Pivot System can be very complex and hard to grasp. This forum should be a place where you can learn more about it. So from now on I will stick to Reinhardt in my posts.

Chris

PS- Lee I'll meet you in the Lounge and we'll talk "wig". O.K?

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Rich and Chris;
I agree with both of you.
Rich,
please keep it to "Find out about the Teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt".
I for one think you are doing a great job as moderator, especially since I am the person that helped get you into this mess back in the late 70's.
Lee;
Sorry that you feel it is a "closed cult".
From my own personal experience multiple embouchures are not good.
It will catch up to you sooner or later.
WEG