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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | mike ansberry wrote: | I have struggled with range and endurance for decades. When I first started playing in elementary school I progressed rapidly and had an A above the staff in 5th grade. A usable A. But after elementary school I had very little instruction about fundamentals of trumpet playing. None at all through high school. In college I was 1st or 2nd chair for 3 years and played in everything. But range ended at C above the staff. I studied for several years with a prominent local trumpet player who was a Claude Gordon student. I got my range up to an Eb but my endurance was still not good. I pretty much stayed at this level for decades, unable to progress.
Throughout my trumpet life teachers told me I should not think about my embouchure. Analysis = Paralysis, etc. But i had diligently worked through the Gordon routine, worked through the Clarke studies, Nagel, Irons, etc. Nothing helped. Several years ago I started working on Rusty Russell's ideas in 19/30s. This was the beginning of my journey to finding a solution. I found the Balanced Embouchure concept and began working on it. It has been a big help. I was able to work on it while still gigging on my old embouchure. Over time the concepts crept into my regular playing and now my embouchure has changed to a more rolled in setting and my range has gone up and my endurance has increased greatly. I no longer feel like I am physically working hard to play the horn. |
Correct. It has nothing to do with the air. You're using the same air you always used. There is nothing a player can do with air alone to increase range or efficiency. Range and efficiency is what happens when you do something TO air, not when you do something WITH air, and the thing that is done TO air is done by the setting of the chops. |
I have to say that I disagree with the last part of the above analysis. I struggled for years to hit hi notes at top volume, only when I finally figured out it takes less volume but accelerated velocity was I able to progress above hi e. I could bury the band there, but nothing after, I simply blew my lips from the MP. I had been making some progress up to an f with redirecting my air higher in the cup per Bobby Shew and for some reason decided to back off the air, think I was tired, and a good volume g came out. Now I’m working on building the volume of the note, by gaining resistance by lip strength. The e is now like the lower g was and I expect the g will eventually get there. Mr Shew said you have to use less air and higher pivot point, my experience shows this spot on.
Rod |
You didn't grow new lungs. Your air supply is the same as it was. You still deliver your air supply to your chop setting. Without your chop setting your air delivery doesn't produce a note. So, assuming your air supply is adequate, it's not air, it's the chop setting and the way the chop setting acts on the air that increases range.
You're not accelerating air velocity from the supply side to increase range. Just how would you do that? Blow harder? All that would do is increase the sound volume. You accelerate air velocity through the chops by changing what you do to the air. If the air accelerates it's because the chop setting acts on the air supply to create that result.
Whether you back off or pile on the air supply is just the air supply. If the pitch changes that change is effectuated by the way the chop setting acts on the air supply. For example, changing the direction of the air as you describe is not changing the air, it's changing what you do to the air.
It's pretty simply: You provide air supply by exhaling. You get the results, good, bad or indifferent, only by virtue of what the chop setting does to the air supply.
It's like supplying fuel to an engine. Fuel delivery is just fuel delivery. Fuel delivery does not, in and of itself, produce horsepower. Once sufficient fuel is delivered all the power and efficiency is a product of the engine itself, not a product of the fuel delivery. All the fuel delivery in the world won't make a weak engine strong. Similarly, all the air delivery in the world won't make a bad chop setting deliver good notes.
A beginner in good respiratory health already has more than enough air supply to play any note on the trumpet. It's not the air that's missing. It's the correct chop setting that's missing. It's the inability to do to the air what needs to be done to the air to produce the desired note that's missing.
If you could create a chop setting machine that you could set correctly for any note you could hook up a basic air compressor to it and as long as the compressor delivered an adequate air supply you could produce any note on the machine you wanted to produce, you wouldn't need any kind of special equipment or a jet powered air delivery system. The "air" part of it would cease to be a factor once the air supply was adequate.
You can improve many aspects of your playing by improving your breathing but air alone doesn't produce notes on the trumpet. Once the air supply is adequate (and "adequate" is far less than the capacity of an average person) the notes are all determined by the chop setting and how the chop setting acts on the air. That's the only point in the system at which a note is actually produced.
As Claude Gordon said: Brass playing is no harder than deep breathing. Once everything is working correctly playing is as simple as taking a big breath, which everyone in good respiratory health can do. If you deliver an adequate air supply to your chop setting and you don't produce the desired note the problem is the chop setting and how that setting acts on the air supply. The problem is not the air itself.
You provide air supply by exhaling. Do your chops really care how you exhale as long as you deliver an adequate air supply to your chops? How would your chops even detect any differences in the way you exhale? Your chops can work only with air that reaches your chops and if the supply is adequate that part of the job is complete and so if you're not getting the results you want air isn't the problem.
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Kumara999
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Joined: 11 Mar 2019
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Hermokiwi - thank you. I found your explanation to be one of the easiest to understand.
I also struggle with upper register - band directors only comments ever are “ just blow harder” - a fruitless exercise in itself.
I am contuining to work on my set-up as I do feel that my air supply is sufficient.
Thank you for the additional insight.
Heather |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Kumara999 wrote: | ...
I also struggle with upper register - band directors only comments ever are “ just blow harder” - a fruitless exercise in itself.
I am contuining to work on my set-up as I do feel that my air supply is sufficient. ... |
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You might find some useful ideas here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.docx
or
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
Embouchure 'set-up' is critical - it is a skill of delicate and precise coordination of lip position and lip tension. Even with perfect set-up, there's is the need to have the internal air pressure (the 'blow harder') for higher notes. But good set-up comes first.
You can be 'your best teacher', but it requires knowledge -
1) what should you be 'doing'?
2) what are you doing now?
3) do you have bad habits that need to be eliminated?
4) how to make yourself do it right?
I suggest you read my document above, DON'T make any immediate changes but remember the points that I mention. THEN watch youtube or read other people's suggestions about embouchure and range and see if you can CONNECT my points with items that other people mention. Sometimes the items are not emphasized, or only mentioned briefly. That is often because the person thinks 'everyone knows that' (because it is basic good set-up) and the person is primarily concerned with the more advanced things that they do.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: Try this |
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Stan Harrison
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 21
Location: Newark, De.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| a few months ago, i felt air on my left hand while playing, i thought maybe the trumpet had a leak, then realized the air was coming from the corners of my mouth. After Concentrating on tightening the corner muscles of my Embouchures, thus directing the wasted air into the MP, I immediately increased my Range. |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:46 am Post subject: |
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What I was trying to say (not very well as usual) was that you create the velocity by making the aperture smaller while keeping enough space for vibration, which can be done with very little air. This also as stated in other posts results in very low volume. I want to be able to play any note I ‘claim’ to sound relatively equal to lower notes so I have to learn the technique necessary to play the note on command at low volume then keep working it to get the strength and coordination necessary to apply the volume by blowing harder. I can squeal above dbl. c with no control but see no application for that. I had to 1st get and understanding of the science from someone I could believe in (Bobby Shew in my case), buy into the theory because it seemed to work. I was learning to play full notes in areas I couldn’t be proud of before, but still experienced a stopping point about hi e when I tried to play lead presence and volume. I was trying to push the same air thru the range, and trying to push more above my comfort level. One day when doing a long tone at hi c to exhaustion of air, I noticed when I got low on air the note went to e the f then g. It was lower volume but was clear and had resonance. I started playing and found that if I was conscientious about air use I could make them notes I could play but not loudly. The e is now pretty easy and I’m getting some volume at f. I just have to learn the chop position or feel for the note then start trying to make it playable till I’m strong enough to blow harder for on top volume and pitch. I quit playing for 48 or so years and am not strong yet.
And some others have mentioned BE and I’ve used those exercises for discovery and really like them, they changed my initial and have helped me do what bobby advises.
Rod |
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daveboa
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Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 17
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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By all means experiment with equipment. In my humble opinion, the mouthpiece is more important than the horn though.
Don't confuse hours and hours of practice with a couple hours of clever practice. The two key words for me in unlocking the upper register were EFFICIENCY and DISCOVERY. Don't be afraid to experiment and remember, the more efficient you are the easier the high range will be. You also have to discover the high register yourself. Get advice from a respected lead player who can do it already, then try for yourself. It might and probably will take a long time but persevere. Remember, you DISCOVER the upper register rather than earn it through hours of range building exercises.
And yes, smaller mouthpieces will make it easier in the upper register but they are harder to play than a Bach 1.5c. You have to get the technique right to make them work. |
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Rod wrote: | Quote: | | I struggled for years to hit hi notes at top volume, only when I finally figured out it takes less volume but accelerated velocity |
Well it appears folks are hung up on "air velocity" as a thing again.
Exactly how "accelerated" was the velocity Rod? How did you measure it? At what location in the system was it measured?
And, regarding your "less volume", I assume you are referring to less air flow. (Volume and flow are not the same thing.)
Please understand that air velocity, anywhere, is a liability. If you could play with the lowest possible air velocity you would be AMAZED how easy it would be to play. Especially the high notes.
There is also confusion in regard to air velocity and air pressure.
The "fuel" or "energy" that we use to play is air pressure. (Or more specifically, pressure is energy density)
There is still much confusion over the actual mechanics of playing in regard to air pressure, flow, velocity, resistance, efficiency, etc.
Until the discussion can be had with understood defined terms and at least reasonable technical understanding, it is simply one persons metaphors against another's. In other words, its the blind leading the blind in the dark.
But air pressure is air pressure. The factor that determines how effectively the air power is converted to sound power is embouchure performance and skill.
As HERMOKIWI wrote:
| Quote: | | You provide air supply by exhaling. Do your chops really care how you exhale as long as you deliver an adequate air supply to your chops? How would your chops even detect any differences in the way you exhale? Your chops can work only with air that reaches your chops and if the supply is adequate that part of the job is complete and so if you're not getting the results you want air isn't the problem. |
I mostly agree. As an example: there are those who think that the tongue does SOMETHING to the air to control pitch and the lips are passive, only "reacting" to what the AIR tells them. They even make claims that the tongue arch "compresses" the air. (it does the opposite)
Much of that advice is purely metaphorical to encourage certain actions, but the purveyors expect you to take it as literal truth in a technical sense.
Last edited by kalijah on Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:05 pm Post subject: Another good book |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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When I click the link nothing happens. Is there a better link?
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Lionel
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| daveboa wrote: | By all means experiment with equipment. In my humble opinion, the mouthpiece is more important than the horn though.
Don't confuse hours and hours of practice with a couple hours of clever practice. The two key words for me in unlocking the upper register were EFFICIENCY and DISCOVERY. Don't be afraid to experiment and remember, the more efficient you are the easier the high range will be. You also have to discover the high register yourself. Get advice from a respected lead player who can do it already, then try for yourself. It might and probably will take a long time but persevere. Remember, you DISCOVER the upper register rather than earn it through hours of range building exercises.
And yes, smaller mouthpieces will make it easier in the upper register but they are harder to play than a Bach 1.5c. You have to get the technique right to make them work. |
I like this post. The basic problem with the way that we train young trumpet players is that most methods apply 19th-century methods to the demands of a 20th and 21st-century type of music.
I know that everyone swears by the Arban book. But look what happens if I take a contrarian opinion on this book. I'm immediately branded a pariah. In fact I don't disapprove of the text written by J B Arban at all. I just find it to be largely a 19th-century approach in a 21st-century world. The most common edition of the book is the 1879 edition. This time period being fully twenty years before Louis Armstrong was born. That and nearly forty years before Maynard Ferguson was born.
Satchmo had as fine of a G/High C as anyone of his day. And of course Maynard effectively invented a new way of playing the instrument. He took seemingly impossible phases and cadenzas and played them effortlessly night after night. He was a veritable "Superman". A man extremely important both to Jazz and the future of the trumpet itself. If the kind of technique that you want to play is somewhere around the style of these two masters? You're probably going to need to figure certain things out that are just not contained within Arbans.
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"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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daveboa
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Lionel wrote: | | daveboa wrote: | By all means experiment with equipment. In my humble opinion, the mouthpiece is more important than the horn though.
Don't confuse hours and hours of practice with a couple hours of clever practice. The two key words for me in unlocking the upper register were EFFICIENCY and DISCOVERY. Don't be afraid to experiment and remember, the more efficient you are the easier the high range will be. You also have to discover the high register yourself. Get advice from a respected lead player who can do it already, then try for yourself. It might and probably will take a long time but persevere. Remember, you DISCOVER the upper register rather than earn it through hours of range building exercises.
And yes, smaller mouthpieces will make it easier in the upper register but they are harder to play than a Bach 1.5c. You have to get the technique right to make them work. |
I like this post. The basic problem with the way that we train young trumpet players is that most methods apply 19th-century methods to the demands of a 20th and 21st-century type of music.
I know that everyone swears by the Arban book. But look what happens if I take a contrarian opinion on this book. I'm immediately branded a pariah. In fact I don't disapprove of the text written by J B Arban at all. I just find it to be largely a 19th-century approach in a 21st-century world. The most common edition of the book is the 1879 edition. This time period being fully twenty years before Louis Armstrong was born. That and nearly forty years before Maynard Ferguson was born.
Satchmo had as fine of a G/High C as anyone of his day. And of course Maynard effectively invented a new way of playing the instrument. He took seemingly impossible phases and cadenzas and played them effortlessly night after night. He was a veritable "Superman". A man extremely important both to Jazz and the future of the trumpet itself. If the kind of technique that you want to play is somewhere around the style of these two masters? You're probably going to need to figure certain things out that are just not contained within Arbans. |
Totally agree with Lionel. I've never really used Arban for this exact reason. I've cobbled together my own exercises taken from various method books that I feel are relevant to me and will help my development. I don't see the point in slogging away for hours and hours on exercises that won't help me or will make my chops 'strong', but only up to D above high C. That's no use to anyone. And you definitely have to DISCOVER the upper register yourself. Take an autonomous approach but still get guidance from someone who plays in the upper register easily, WITHOUT hurting themselves. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Method books place a big emphasis on their "range building" benefits. However, "range building" via method books alone is essentially "doing the best you can with the technique/chop setting you already have." If you already had the perfect technique/chop setting you wouldn't need "range building" because your range would already be there. Just saying.
As others have posted the key to an easy and extensive high range is knowing and executing the proper technique/chop setting yet there seems to be very little focus on this aspect of range building. The primary focus seems to be strength exercises/high note drills using whatever technique/chop setting you brought along.
As I said in my prior post, if you could build a machine that would duplicate the perfect technique/chop setting for any note and then provide an adequate air supply the machine would produce all the notes perfectly as high as you wanted it to produce them and it would do that without ever studying a method book or doing strength exercises or high note drills.
Any player with a healthy respiratory system can provide more than enough air supply to produce any note on the trumpet. The ability to form a chop setting and hold it in place while passing air through it is a function of strength. However, if the chop setting is correct most players can develop the required strength with reasonable practice.
Meaning that the most important key to an easy and extensive high range is knowing and executing the proper technique/chop setting. Yet, this aspect seems to be the least emphasized, least taught, most misunderstood and most contentious topic related to range development. If a machine can do it without even practicing it so can we IF we employ the correct chop setting and provide that setting with an adequate air supply.
Sometimes people go out of their way to make things more complicated than those things really are.
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daveboa
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Joined: 23 Jul 2002
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | Method books place a big emphasis on their "range building" benefits. However, "range building" via method books alone is essentially "doing the best you can with the technique/chop setting you already have." If you already had the perfect technique/chop setting you wouldn't need "range building" because your range would already be there. Just saying.
As others have posted the key to an easy and extensive high range is knowing and executing the proper technique/chop setting yet there seems to be very little focus on this aspect of range building. The primary focus seems to be strength exercises/high note drills using whatever technique/chop setting you brought along.
As I said in my prior post, if you could build a machine that would duplicate the perfect technique/chop setting for any note and then provide an adequate air supply the machine would produce all the notes perfectly as high as you wanted it to produce them and it would do that without ever studying a method book or doing strength exercises or high note drills.
Any player with a healthy respiratory system can provide more than enough air supply to produce any note on the trumpet. The ability to form a chop setting and hold it in place while passing air through it is a function of strength. However, if the chop setting is correct most players can develop the required strength with reasonable practice.
Meaning that the most important key to an easy and extensive high range is knowing and executing the proper technique/chop setting. Yet, this aspect seems to be the least emphasized, least taught, most misunderstood and most contentious topic related to range development. If a machine can do it without even practicing it so can we IF we employ the correct chop setting and provide that setting with an adequate air supply.
Sometimes people go out of their way to make things more complicated than those things really are. |
Hear hear! Exactly. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
When I click the link nothing happens. Is there a better link? |
----------------------
EDIT: I have created a 'regular web page' for my embouchure information that will be easier to access - it is at -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
You might find it easier to read by using the 'zoom' (+) function of your browser to increase the size of the text.
Hopefully this will fix problems with not being able to view it!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The file is a MS Word 'docx' file and it might not display just by clicking - LOOK to see if there is anything new (maybe in small type) asking about how or if you want to display the file.
For me with MS Edge browser a small notification appears in the lower left corner of the screen. With FIREFOX a small pop-up opens asking how I want to display the file.
If that fails, send me a PM or email and I'll send you a text version
jkosta@hancock.net
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mike ansberry
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:06 am Post subject: |
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I have no scientific basis for this, but I believe each of us has to figure out what works for them. Some of us have an underbite, some and overbite. Our lips are shaped differently. I know people who are very successful with a rolled out embouchure, some with a rolled in embouchure, some with high mouthpiece placement, some with low, some on center, some off center.
I have not studied Reinhardt. Is that kind of what he talks about?
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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daveboa
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Posts: 17
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| mike ansberry wrote: | I have no scientific basis for this, but I believe each of us has to figure out what works for them. Some of us have an underbite, some and overbite. Our lips are shaped differently. I know people who are very successful with a rolled out embouchure, some with a rolled in embouchure, some with high mouthpiece placement, some with low, some on center, some off center.
I have not studied Reinhardt. Is that kind of what he talks about? |
Yes, agreed Mike. DISCOVER what works for you.
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: One more |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
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RussellDDixon
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