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kehaulani
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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 Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Boy, this question is hard to frame. If I play notes, particularly in the lower register, with the front of my tongue properly anchored behind the lower teeth but somewhat flat, lying on the bottom of my mouth, I hear the sound coming from somewhere in front of me.
If I raise the middle of my tongue, as I would do ascending, the sound shifts from in front of me to directly in my ears, or in my head.
And when I arch my tongue, it seems to me that to a listener, the sound quality would become more piercing and lose some of its roundness.
This all has to do with forming an "ah" versus an "ee".
Anybody know what I'm talking about? And is this common? Thanks. |
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EBjazz
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I completely understand your question, but I don't see a big problem.
Everyone's tongue and mouth is different so what I do is just try to get the sound you want and don't think about it.
There is no "one" tongue position or set positions. The tongue is constantly in some kind of motion.
The fact that the sound changes when you raise or lower the tongue is true, so if you change your tongue position and you don't like the sound, you've probably gone too far. Instinct usually takes over if you don't like the sound and you should let it.
Eb
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks Eric. |
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MF Fan
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Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 397
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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If I raise the middle of my tongue, as I would do ascending, the sound shifts from in front of me to directly in my ears, or in my head.
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What you're describing is a very personal perception, so cause/effect is certainly difficult to assess for someone that hasn't heard your playing. However, what came to mind while reading your post is this: A loss of resonance, which is how I interpret your description of "the sound coming from somewhere in front of you," could be the result of not keeping your airstream lined-up with the throat of your mouthpiece while ascending. Most players can get a nice fat resonant sound in the lower register because they can easily pivot their horn to line-up their airstream with the mouthpiece throat. As you ascend by arching your tongue, your jaw is mostly likely moving sympathetically, your chops are tensing slightly, etc. all of which will affect the angle of the airstream as it enters the mouthpiece. If it's no longer aimed into the throat, you lose the resonance, and the sound is perceived as coming from closer in. The loss of resonance can be compared to the difference between singing in the shower vs. singing in a closet.
The Reinhardt forum is the place to explore this concept. It's more complicated than simply tilting your horn up or down like you can do in the lower register, it's about how your embouchure glides up or down on your teeth to keep the airstream lined-up, relative to what your jaw and lips are doing. The challenge is to not become overly conscious of what's going on or you'll suffer from analysis by paralysis.
I'm sure Claude would have slapped me by now....
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MF Fan
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[ This Message was edited by: MF Fan on 2003-04-21 16:26 ] |
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EBjazz
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dbacon
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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On 2003-04-20 18:57, EBjazz wrote:
I'm not sure I completely understand your question, but I don't see a big problem.
Everyone's tongue and mouth is different so what I do is just try to get the sound you want and don't think about it.
There is no "one" tongue position or set positions. The tongue is constantly in some kind of motion.
The fact that the sound changes when you raise or lower the tongue is true, so if you change your tongue position and you don't like the sound, you've probably gone too far. Instinct usually takes over if you don't like the sound and you should let it.
Eb
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Eric has it nailed, it's not too complex unless you like that sort of complexity. The only thing I might add (not a Claude answer, but I'm not sure he would disagree). Arnold Jacobs told me, when I asked about tongue arching, was that the tongue rides the air. Notice it being relaxed, let your sound be your guide. Think a more brilliant sound and your tongue probably arches up some to shape the sound. Let the tongue be out of the way as you inhale, listen for the "OOH" sound in the inhalation. But trying to control such an unruly muscle as the tongue through concious thought.....the body does not work that way. It seemed to me that Claude used exercises (slurs, kick the top note, K tonguing) and his own playing to get the tongue to work the way it should. He did say "Watch the tongue," but out of context it's hard to understand how he meant things like that. Great teachers all have one liners that work well in context.
But complexity only adds complexity, not enlightenment. I never thought Claude Gordon was anything but clear in his directions. Getting your mind off the wrong stuff and focused on your playing seems more like his approach. Go practice, rest as much as you play, listen to what's coming out of the bell. If you sound like Bernie Glow, great. If not, keep getting closer everyday.
Worry and complexity nobody needs.
Dave Bacon |
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MF Fan
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Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 397
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:59 am Post subject: |
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On 2003-04-21 17:05, EBjazz wrote:
<I'm sure Claude would have slapped me by now....
Too bad I don't have moderator status, or you'd be deleted into oblivion. 
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Eric:
I'm curious to know if you're reaction of wanting to delete me into oblivion is because the content doesn't fit the Gordon forum, which I clearly recognize it doesn't, or if you think the idea is groundless? The question was posted here, so I thought posting the response here was appropriate. I don't profess to be an expert on anything related to trumpet playing outside of what works for me. At the same time, based on your previous posts, professional accomplishments, and experience as a Gordon student, I value your opinion and would expect it to supersede anything I have to offer in this forum. I do believe the 'theory' I suggested would be considered valid in the Reinhardt forum.
If you think I'm totally off base, or potentially misguided, I'll do everyone a favor and delete myself, or at least my recent post. Hopefully you weren't suggesting I be rubbed out entirely.
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MF Fan
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Schilke 15a4 - 23 Throat
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra
[ This Message was edited by: MF Fan on 2003-04-22 10:00 ] |
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trickg
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I know exactly what your are talking about and it is hard to define. Sometimes the feel or focal point is right in my face whereas once I was playing a mouthpiece with a larger throat and it changed my perceived focal point to somewhere out in front of my horn. Both are a different feel and I think that it also has something to do with how you project. This happens for me more with changing a mouthpiece, and in particular the openess of the mouthpiece, than with what I'm doing with my tongue. The fact of the matter is, you are changing how you are vibrating your air column by shifting your tongue and that changes how and where the horn is resonating, thus giving you a different perception of where that focal point is.
Someone mentioned paralysis through analysis and I think that applies to this situation. You can be aware that it is happening, but try not to think about it. Just try to get used to it and you should be fine.
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EBjazz
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Joined: 14 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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<I'm curious to know if you're reaction of wanting to delete me into oblivion is because the content doesn't fit the Gordon forum, which I clearly recognize it doesn't, or if you think the idea is groundless?>
It was responding because this is the CG forum. My thoughts on the idea you presented are that it's WAAY too analytical and theoretical to be of any good to anyone trying to play a trumpet. In fact my head exploded after the first sentence so I stopped reading. You did say something that made sense though:
<The Reinhardt forum is the place to explore this concept.>
Eb
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Eric Bolvin
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Hey, folks, thanks for the thought fodder.
Eric - don't worry about my being overwhelmed with info. I was a trumpet student at NTSU when John Haynie was doing his flourascope studies and other physiological stuff and, while it certainly did not bother many others, I became a victim of "paralysis by analysis". After a coupl'a lessons later with a very practical player/teacher, I learned my lesson.
Homie don't play dat no more! |
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