Pull toward the mouthpiece?

Chris Brown · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: Pull toward the mouthpiece?

In Claude Gordon's systematic approach. What does he mean by the following:
When ascending make sure the lips pull together toward the mouthpiece.
This sounds contradictory to me and therefore confusing.

Chris Brown.
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Matt Graves · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject:

My own experience of "the pull towards the center" is a slight pucker especially in ascending (Claude wrote, "When ascending to higher register, the lip should contract toward the mouthpiece." - p.5 Systematic Approach. There is also a circle diagram with arrows around the circumference pointing inward). I remember Claude remarking that after he included it in the book, he almost wished that he hadn't since people tended to obsess over the appearance of the lips. Forcing such a thing to happen is not the idea. I also sense this feeling while playing David Hickman's bending exercises in 15 Advanced Embouchure Studies as well as flexibility exercises that cover a range through the staff past g2 and over c3.
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trptdork · Veteran Member Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 197

My understanding of this idea is to not PULL the chops to the center, but actually PUSH to the center.

That makes a whole lot more sense to my way of thinking, and I think is more accurate to the original idea he was getting at.

I was warned that the corners still need to remain Firm, but not tense, and that the real idea is to create a cushioned feel, but without cramming the chops into the mouthpiece.

Hope that helps!!

mcgovnor · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: oh boy

pulling would infer moving away from the mouthpiece. pushing would infer moving toward the mouthpiece.
claude wanted students to resist the mouthpiece with the musculature of the embouchure, obviously pushing toward the mouthpiece, or puckering, as opposed to smiling, or pulling the lips away from the rim, in the smile slightly Schlossberg type approach. Also, pushing toward the rim prevents the thinning out of the lips by rolling back. The lips have to close under the rim at the point of vibration, one way or another. Far better they do while pushing toward the rim.

Matt Graves · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:47 am Post subject:

By the way, in the last sentence of the text just before the first exercise of Clarke's Technical Studies, First Study, Clarke writes,

"Contract the lips slightly in ascending, relax in descending."

This book was originally published in 1912 and renewed in 1920 and 1934 before its more modern incarnations. Hopefully, this text as well as the rest of the original remains in some of today's versions. I hate when revisors or editors completely remove original text instead of just annotating it!
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nyctrumpeter · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:54 am Post subject:

oliver king · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1742

Think about the picture of the monkey in the Maggio book.
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poprishchin · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:28 am Post subject:

"Monkey Lips"

I think this is a very useful visualization:

(I'm being serious, by the way.)

poprishchin · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:28 am Post subject:

haha oliver beat me to it!

Matt Graves · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:44 am Post subject:

nyctrumpeter wrote:

Matt Graves · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:56 am Post subject:

The chimp picture about 17 or 18 pages into Carton Macbeth's book, "The Original Louis Maggio System for Brass" is cute. I don't like what the completely rolled out lower lip implies. Cute but overdone. Contracting the lips centerwards is much more subtle.
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jdostie · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:42 am Post subject:

Craig Swartz · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:56 am Post subject:

Chas Colin makes similar comments to those of Gordon in the text included in the Advanced Lip Flexibilities Studies, vols 1 & 2. I think what is attempted to be emphasized is not to stretch the corners (or lips) back. It's just another explanation of compression, as far as I'm concerned.

nyctrumpeter · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:19 am Post subject:

Chris Brown · Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:41 am Post subject:

"Contract the lips slightly in ascending, relax in descending."

I don't much think about what my lips are doing when I practice, however when I do this is more or less what I feel.
Thanks Matt and the rest of the 'TH gang' for your thoughts.

PS. I bought my copy of CG's Systematic approach 18 months ago (I've been playing just over three years) I've not used the exercises much however I did take on board his 7 items. Just recently I've been using the KTM position (I tried it when I first got my copy with little success) and I find that I can play my normal range fairly well with the added bonus that I find it easier to move from 'ahh' to 'eee' when ascending using KTM rather than my usual back of the top teeth attack.
Other Claude Gordon thoughts I've found helpful:
"Big breath chest up" & "As you go higher, blow stronger, step on the gas"

Chris Brown
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ewetho · Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:10 am Post subject:

I just saw the Video of Claude talking about his whole approach. He stopped near the end to talk about the lip. He mentions that when playing correctly you kind of grip the mouthpiece. Now what your mouth does may/will be different that the next guy. So in the end it will take care of itself if you do the rest properly. If you watch him play you actually see his corners go back then forward as he ascends.

Some people corners he said go back and up some go down. Just try and grip the mouthpiece a touch and don't worry about it.

I was playing last night and kind of get ti I think it. You will use pressure and your lip will develop what it need when everything else is done properly. So after discussing a bit of what is going on he states FORGET THE LIP. Probably good advice.

If you have further questions I would find a CG Method instructor and have the watch you to make sure you are doing it all OK.
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John Mohan · Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:45 am Post subject:

Okay, I'm going to tackle this. I know the answer, but this is a complicated one, and I'm not sure it will be real easy to understand without an in-person explanation and demonstration. I'd suggest that if you want to read and learn from this, set some distraction-free time aside, get a nice cup of coffee or tea, and read on...

Just as I think it is helpful to understand that in general terms, the tongue arches up and forward as we ascend in range, it is also helpful to understand, in general terms, the movement the lips make and what they do as we ascend in range. Claude felt that it was best to "let the lips take care of themselves". He did offer some brief explanations in his books, and perhaps even briefer ones in private lessons, but what I am going to write, I learned from my own experience and observations.

I'll try not to confuse everyone with my explanation here!

In the Systematic Approach book, where Claude talks about the lips contracting toward the mouthpiece, there is a circle with a bunch of arrows on the outside of the circle pointed toward the center of the circle. Many people take this to mean that one should "pucker" their lips. And Maggio did talk about puckering. Personally, I do not think that "puckering" is the actual phenomenon. As I ascend in range, and as Claude and the many other great players I've worked with ascend in range, it is apparent to me that our lips contract toward each other (toward the mouthpiece), and also roll inward slightly. This inward motion is actually the opposite of a pucker! Using the term "pucker" is a good way to get the idea through that we should NOT stretch our lips or try to smile to ascend, but it gives the wrong idea that the lips should move outward (toward the horn), when in fact, they need to roll inward to meet and oppose the increasing air velocity and pressure caused by blowing harder and arching the tongue.

In saying that when doing this, the lips might appear thinner as one ascends, I do not mean to suggest that one should "stretch" their lips, or "smile" with the embouchure, but rather, if you take your lips and roll them slightly inward as you compress them toward each other, they will simply look a bit thinner. This is not a thinning caused by stretching, and it is really not a "thinning" at all! It's just that as you roll them inward, you see less lip material.

And think of this:

If you were to draw a circle with a magic marker on the skin around the center of your lips, similar to that illustration with the circle and arrows in the SA book, and then compress your lips together and also roll them slightly inward as I've described, that circle would get smaller, as the skin of your lips moved toward the mouthpiece as you compressed your lips and rolled them slightly inward. The movement would be in the same direction as the arrows around the circle point in Claude's book.

In summary, please do not get more confused by all this. All you need to know, is that in general terms, as we ascend in range, the lips need to be compressed toward each other (meaning toward the mouthpiece) and also rolled slightly inward. As we play down into the pedal notes, the lips usually roll outward (in the true "pucker" position). It is because of the lips’ need to be able to move to establish a good, free vibration in whatever register we are playing in, ascending to, or descending to, that the lips need to be kept moist and the mouthpiece pressure needs to be kept at a reasonable level so the lips can indeed move.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

jdostie · Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:31 pm Post subject:

Thank you. Very well written to my point of view, and I understood (almost) all of it. It's just a bit difficult to visualize compressing toward the mouthpiece while curling the lips in - away from the mouthpiece. But I guess if you consider not the whole lip, but let's say the outer ring of the lips (where the red ends), then that part is moving toward the center of the mouthpiece.

What I still don't understand is the notion of "gripping" the mouthpiece. I've heard (read) others talking about that, and saying that they need to play fairly dryly for that, but Claude Gordon says the lips must be wet, so I don't think they are talking about the same thing. . .

BPL · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 347

Thanks John.. a very clear description. Makes every sense to what I'm experiencing.

John Mohan · Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:15 am Post subject:

You're both welcome!

In regard to the "gripping the mouthpiece" I always wondered exactly what Claude meant (perhaps I should have asked him!).

For me, the mouthpiece wants to go to one and only one spot. I think part of this is due to the many years of playing creating a shape to my upper lip where it just fits to the mouthpiece perfectly in that one particular spot. I can play off to either side, in the manner Claude demonstrates on his video - but I sure don't sound good when I do that and range and technique become very limited.

For me, the mouthpiece is placed in the right spot and it wants to stay there - and this despite the fact that I keep my lips moist and slippery when I play. So I guess I can say "my lips grip the mouthpiece", more or less.

Best wishes,

John