How come their are no hero's int he trumpet designing world?

kellymilch · Veteran Member Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Posts: 140

What type of drug/or drugs would induce someone to write long posts that are pointless ?

Too much time and not enough companionship.

The Captain ain't happen'in

Scorpion · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject:

usually I ignore the super long posts, but here is a huge problem in your argument:

You claim that the student and intermediate lines from American horn makers will soon disappear because the chinese are copying them so well, and making them cheaper.

Then you go on next to complain because no one will give you detailed info about leadpipes, bells, etc.

1. Obviously it can be figured out because, as you pointed out, the chinese have done it (and done it incredibly well, by your estimation.)

2. People releasing their trade secrets inside America will have the same effect on those makers as releasing them in China. Yeah, maybe one lonely dude's curiosities will be satisfied, but whatever makers release results of "hardcore scientific scrutiny" will loose ridiculous amounts of money once everyone else starts making their designs.

3.

LittleRusty · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject:

I tried to read the post. I got a few paragraphs in and gave up. The whole tone reminds me of my kids. A lot of complaining when they didn't get their way.

Let's face it this country was built on people being able to build up intellectual property and capitalize on it.

One of the purposes of patents is to grant a monopoly for a person to realize the monetary benefits of their ideas, but in turn the person grants free access to the ideas after the given period since the patent fully documents the idea.

People who choose not to participate in this are allowed to keep any secrets they like and they are extremely wise to do so. At some point someone will figure out the trade secrets but until then one has a edge on the market that is to be valued.

Why anyone would freely give up their hardwon ideas and processes is beyond me.

With all due respect, if I had been reading someone's posts which were long and rambling with little care taken in their construction, and that person then asked me to reveal my trade secrets to him I certainly wouldn't.

thedevilisbad · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject:

Being only about 45 miles away from Byron and playing with him in community concert band, I know he shares his invaluable wealth of knowledge to many people. We don't know this because we don't work in those shops right with him. I also think shops that haven't worked with him have done a decent job. A lot of people seem to be fans of Getzen, Stomvi (the V raptor), the newer Schilke's, and countless smaller custom shops.
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Retlaw · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject:

The minute I saw the title I thought... this is an attention seeking post and of course he got it!..........

Walter

R.Sole · Veteran Member Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 164

Let's ask the trumpetherald gods to create a forum just for Mr.Kirk

TrptSTP · Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject:

Could I get a summary of this? My eyes go out of focus after the first few lines.

Retlaw · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:58 am Post subject:

Andy Taylor
F.E.Olds
Hub Van Laar
H.N. White
Thomas Inderbinen
Roy Lalwer
Henri Selmer
Vincent Bach
Zig Kanstul
Renold Schilke
Leigh McKinney
Eldon Benge
Domenick Calicchio
T.J. Getzen
Dave Monette
Denis Wedgwood
Clifford Blackburn
Antoine Courtois

To name a few past and present....a truly global trumpet heritage we can all be proud of......

Why do I bite on these trolls?? I certainly wouldn't last long as a fish...

Walter

camel · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:15 am Post subject:

what?

Romeo Adaci
Klaus Martens
B&S
Stomvi

To add to your list...

B. Scriver · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:48 am Post subject:

GR wanted this reply posted:

Capt. you will need more than some Valerian root. Doing your homework, reading, and letting all the new information sink in will give you insight.

Capt. said,
"So is their any one in the industry that is ready to take up the task of what I proposed? Is anyone as a consumer interested in the details of what makes a great trumpet from design elements to real hard core testing of products on the market right now? Anyone else want to see hard core testing of leadpipes, tuning slides, heavy caps, metal guides etc.......Real testing useing scientific methods and machinery that is able to discern what the human ear can not????"

Did you ignore the last bit of technical info sent your way? As you come up with all these questions it is likely that somebody in an acoustics lab is working on publishing a paper, doing a study, or research on that subject. A few weeks ago I sent you some info regarding this kind of technical information you were looking for. Time to do your Internet searching and study the articles. It's not the easiest stuff to digest but give it a chance.

The Bias system didn't come from Chicago, Wayne had one. You can buy them from Bulgaria and I think it was developed in Austria.

Didn't your read all this stuff yet?

In you spare time here is some reading for you.

Thomas R. Moore, Erin T. Shirley*, Isaac E. W. Codrey*, and Amy E. Daniels*, "The effects of bell vibrations on the sound of the modern trumpet," Acta Acustica, 91, 578-589 (2005).
Thomas R. Moore, Erin T. Shirley* and Amy E. Daniels*, "Trumpet bell vibrations and their effect on the sound of the instrument," Proceedings of the Stockholm Music Acoustics Conference 2003, Stockholm, Sweden, 213-215 (2003).
Thomas R. Moore, "The effect of bell vibrations on the acoustic spectrum of the trumpet," Journal of the Acoustical Society of America 113 (4), 2315 (2003).
Thomas R. Moore, Joseph D. Kaplon*, Gregory D. McDowall* and Kristy A. Martin*, "Vibrational modes of modern trumpet bells," Journal of Sound and Vibration, 254, 777 (2002).
Articles for non-scientists
Thomas R. Moore, "Modifying your mouthpiece: What really happens and why you shouldn't do it," International Trumpet Guild Journal 30 (4), 58 (2006).
Thomas R. Moore, "What causes the sizzle point?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 30 (3), 68 (2006).
Thomas R. Moore, "The science of the mouthpiece: what is and isn't known," International Trumpet Guild Journal 30 (2), 57 (2006).
Thomas R. Moore, "Why can't we make a perfectly tuned trumpet," International Trumpet Guild Journal 30 (1), 64 (2005).
Thomas R. Moore, "Some final thoughts on bell vibrations," International Trumpet Guild Journal 29 (4), 77 (2005).
Thomas R. Moore, "A close look at bell vibrations," International Trumpet Guild Journal 29 (3), 66 (2005).
Thomas R. Moore, "How loud is loud?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 29 (2), 54 (2005).
Thomas R. Moore, "The complicated phenomenon of buzzing lips," International Trumpet Guild Journal 29 (1), 67 (2004).
Thomas R. Moore, "Another look at cryogenics," International Trumpet Guild Journal 28 (4), 63 (2004).
Thomas R. Moore, "Can Mouthpiece Pressure Substitute for Embouchure Control?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 28 (3), 67 (2004).
Thomas R. Moore, "The vocabulary of response," International Trumpet Guild Journal 28 (2), 54 (2004).
Thomas R. Moore, "Is the trumpet bell open or closed?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 28 (1), 68 (2003).
Thomas R. Moore, "Where do the harmonics come from?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 27 (4), 66 (2003).
Thomas R. Moore, "How long is your B-flat trumpet?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 27 (3), 68 (2003).
Thomas R. Moore, "A comment on the importance of air flow," International Trumpet Guild Journal 27 (2), 53 (2003).
Thomas R. Moore, "What is impedance and why do we care?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 27 (1), 70 (2002).
Thomas R. Moore, "Does your body size really affect the pitch of your horn?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 26 (3), 51 (2002).
Thomas R. Moore, "A quick look at bell vibrations," International Trumpet Guild Journal 26 (1), 72 ( 2001).
Thomas R. Moore, "Playing without buzzing: fact or fiction?" International Trumpet Guild Journal 25 (4), 51 (2001).
Thomas R. Moore, "The effect of temperature on pitch," International Trumpet Guild Journal 25 (3), 62 (2001).

Capt.

At least look at the pictures.

A lot of this work was done in 2000 to 2004. We made fixturing and performed very difficult machining to mount the micro transducers in the test mouthpieces. All consulting, designing, time and materials were donated to improve research and better the brass world. There are resources available and it wouldn't be a bad idea for some Doctoral candidate or trumpet enthusiast to compile a website with all the publications.

http://vanadium.rollins.edu/~tmoore/Bell_vibrations_1.htm

Note the higher frequencys and vibration nodes towards the edge of the bell. Dr. Moore specializes in laser and used that technology to get these pics. He also did a program in MathCad to verify the prediction of the modes vs actual. In another word verify the mathematical path and it works.

http://vanadium.rollins.edu/~tmoore/research3.htm

We machined a mouthpiece and milled a precision fitting for the a small transducer and an exact point. Also noted we took an average lip penetration and removed that material from one mouthpiece to simulate the amount of lip in the cup. Note the raised 1st natural harmonic. All acoustical testing done on trumpets previously never accounted for the lip penetration (only tested from the rim plane). They are not accurate. Each player will have a different harmonic structure due to their lip engagement and lip oscillation. We are still learning. Just wait! More is coming in the future.

http://vanadium.rollins.edu/~tmoore/images/05220103.jpg

Talk to anyone and talk about what they think but when you spend the time and money to do the testing you have the facts. The information is not always easy to apply to playing the trumpet but we see great changes in just the past 10 years. You have to thank Thomas Moore and his physics students at Rollins College for all the hard work.

Gary Radtke
www.grmouthpieces.com

Bruin · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:30 am Post subject:

holeypants · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 996

I'm pretty sure he's not actually reading these replies, unfortunately. He's just trolling us.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:53 am Post subject:

I don't think the Cap'n is trolling. His posts take way too much effort for a good troll.

Anyway there is some really good information in a few of the above replies so this thread isn't a total waste.

oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

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veery715 · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:25 am Post subject:

Someone we know, if they put as much energy into looking for a job as they did into writing their posts, would surely have found one.

Without a complete tour of the facilities of the major "players" in the premium horn market, how is it possible to know what they are doing when it comes to R&D? Much of this OP's offering is purely speculative. It did bring out some very fine references thanks to Mr. Radke, pointing to some fascinating reading (and neat pictures).

The offshore imitators need only horns to disassemble. They certainly have the technology to duplicate anything, without needing or having to invest in the science which is ongoing and underlies improvements in horn design by our respected American craftsmen.

Copycat horns will be bought by ignorant but well-meaning folks for their children and crap in the hands of beginners will ultimately ruin the market for the crap. US makers would be wise to spend some $$ on educating those uninformed consumers about the pitfalls of buying cheap, and the US government could do us all a favor and start enacting and enforcing some trade policies geared to the protection of domestic manufacturers from the unmitigated continual assault of offshore competition.

veery

gbdeamer · Heavyweight Member Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 2302

I didn't make it all the way through the first post, but these replies are priceless...

Retlaw · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:51 am Post subject:

Hey Veery

America leads the world in just about everything....then again I suppose there are a few good European cars.... still no need to worry about protecting home markets.... bigger vision is what is needed. With the advent of the Internet the Chinese and for that matter the rest of the world know all about the great horns that have come out of the US....rest assured that many trumpet players aspire to at least a Martin Committee from the past and who knows what from the present..... if you close the markets you lose out by US trumpets not going to the millions.......

So much of our trumpet heritage comes from emigrating Europeans who shared all they knew. Andy Taylor says on his web site that building a trumpet is not rocket science... he is probably right.... but then again perhaps he is just keeping the secrets of his brilliant horns from the eyes and ears of those who will be soon flooding the market..

Walter

Conn6B · Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:55 am Post subject:

Froggynut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 591

Please do not tell people what to preach CONN6B. You have been told many times already. Please leave your religious beliefs out of the forums.