Balanced embouchure and classical sound...?

Kenman · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 8:49 am Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: Kenman on 2003-05-12 17:34 ]

Pops · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 8:54 am Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 14:06 ]

clarion89 · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 9:26 am Post subject:

What was the original point to this post... Oh yeah, some trumpet player wanted advice on an embochure adjustment. I think we should stick to the matter of the post and leave the griping to private e-mails. Sound good?

By the way, I would hesitate switching embochures unless there is something severely wrong with your current embochure. Get the advice, ears and eyes of a good teacher and decide what to do. Good luck!
_________________
Matt Wirfel
"don't practice long, practice often" - Don Jacoby
https://www.facebook.com/mgwirfel01

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:44 pm Post subject:

Various and sundry:

Ken - At the very least, it appeared that you were - perhaps - accusing me of taking credit for a student that I never taught, or charging other people on this forum of giving me too much credit. That's why I responded with specifics, and with the following as well.

You also said, "I mean I'm sure they use things he advocates but .. who doesn't advocate good air support.. "

Ken, that was pretty dismissive. Do you understand my method?

You said "Jeff recurited these two students from the all-state jazz band here in TX."

Micah committed to the DAYJO band before he ever made All-State. And, it was Micah who recruited Kevin, not me. Fortunately, I get a lot of referrals from current and former band members.

When you said, "Kids like this would succeed with just about anyone as a teacher," I pretty much agree! However, the majority of my time is spent with kids who fall into good habits less easily, yet who still succeed.

Further, you said, "It's not that big a deal except credit needs to go where it's deserved."

That sounds good, but unless you were seeking credit for Kevin's development (which you said you weren't) then all I read was an implied attack on my credibility and methodology. You are welcome to do that, but it is also reasonable to expect a response.

Finally, you said, "I don't even know you and I was just correcting what I know to be fact with my student."

What fact were you correcting?

Clint M - Where have I ever entered into a thread about you, unless my book or ideas were mentioned as well, and I was responding directly to a question or comment about BE? Where have I ever commented ANYTHING about you, even in response to your criticisms directed towards me on TPIN? Your statement, at the very least, was misleading.

There. I guess that now I commented on something about you, Clint.

Dave Bacon - You have too much time on your hands. All the guys who were mentioned by name are over 18. If you have a problem with me Dave, I suggest coming to my booth at ITG (assuming that you are going) and hashing it out face to face. You know what I'm talking about.

Tom Turner - Thanks for the support, as always, and clarity. You have a way of pointing out the truth, which sometimes gets under the skin of a few posters. For sure, you keep things interesting!

Charly Raymond - Thank you for posting those sound clips, without me even asking. If I remember right, you posted them several months back to show examples of good high school players. So listen up, everybody! Whether they were my students or not wasn't even the issue. Still isn't. (But it WAS my band!

)

Nick Wondra - By the way you phrased your question, it sounds like you have already been indoctrinated in the belief that any type of chops manipulation will mess up your sound. This belief is deeply imbedded in the educational system, mostly by so-called classical players. And arguing against that belief can get real nasty. For example, the great Armando Ghitalla, though beloved as a human being, was often reviled behind his back by his peers who considered his embouchure ideas to be quackery. Ghitalla, stung by this two-faced response (according to some of his friends and students), never published a book. If he had, I may have never published mine. Some of our ideas are similar.

The truth is, if you know what you are doing, you can manipulate your lips into many different positions and still get a great sound. You sound is not dependent on a particular embouchure. Your ears play a larger role here.

Nick, you posted a thread several weeks ago about changing from your regular embouchure to BE. I hope that it is clear by now that BE is not a particular embouchure setup, but rather a series of step-by-step exercises to increase your range of lip motion. If the lips are capable of a greater range of motion (ie, more intelligent) isn't it reasonable to assume that you will have even MORE control over your tone quality than before?

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

I've been doing BE for about a month now. Since then I have gained about 6 chromatic steps on my range and play with much more endurance and ease. And my sound is better than ever. Go for it.
_________________
Your belief has no bearing on reality.

atom_anderson · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 1:39 pm Post subject:

I bought the Balanced Embouchure book and had good results.

Although I struggled for a while with consistency, I went from being able to play a G on top of the staff consistently with my old embouchure to being able to play high E's consisistently and hit Double High C's.

My sound is better than it ever was and I've been able to develop consistency by listening more and thinking about my chops less (I already made the adjustments necessary).

-Atom

_bugleboy · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:20 pm Post subject:

Just to keep the record straight on the posted sound files.

I think I brought the Tom Kubis chart to the attention of Jeff (at least where to purchase it) and told him I'd be interested in hearing how his soloist did with it. M. Bell did a great job of playing it, flugel and trumpet, but more than that, the performance is conducted at the highest level by Jeff.

The same thing occurs with Child Of Ecstasy, which has always been my favorite Don Ellis chart. Again, a stellar job of conducting by Jeff and trumpet playing by K. Flatt. I'm guessing that the intro is M. Bell on lead. And that is one slammin' intro: one-of-a-kind!

I put the files up on one of my websites because I thought the solists might get a kick out of being able to hear themselves on the internet.

And, yes, they were posted on the website back around September, 2002.

_bugleboy · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:34 pm Post subject:

dbacon,

Please ask yourself how appropriate it is to use students names like this on the internet?

Use students's names like what? Establishing who their teachers are?

How appropriate is it to argue over them in the open on the internet?

Since when is setting the record straight an argument, unless, of course, you have some aversion to the truth.

Have you asked them if you can name them like this?

Name them like what?

I suggest you have this discussion in private, and delete their names from your previous posts.

I suggest you stop being a Nanny, and stop trying to be so PC.

Pops · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 3:01 pm Post subject:

Jeff;

I have said NOTHING negative about you.

NOBODY is going to agree 100% of the time with anyone.
The only contact I have had with you is when I invited you to lunch with the other Dallas TPIN members. YOU never responded. (Some would consider that to be rude.)

BTW Jeff;
If you really thought I had wronged you YOU could have addressed it when it happened (like you did here with Ken), sent an email, a 37 cent letter or even a phone call (it is local and free).

I do actually try to be fair. I have even in the past been wrong. And I corrected it.

Most problems on the net are more misunderstanding than anything else.

People can try to set things right or they can hold on to the hurt feelings and let them grow.

Finally;
This entire thread has gone away from the original question because of an UNintentional mistake. I didn't delete my sigline (Which goes with everything I write)(I'm a naughty boy). And I was trying to understand what someone I KNOW was asking about.

So someone (NOT INVOLVED) Perceived a wrong had been comitted and had to actually START trouble. That's right folks Mine was an accident, but TOM's was intentional. Which is the bigger crime?

I am AMAZED that the TH is still online.
The legal mess that Todd is standing on the edge of is huge.
(Please DELETE all names of MINORS in this thread. They can't give permission for their names to be used. Nothing about being PC it is about being LEGAL.)

tom turner · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 3:23 pm Post subject:

_bugleboy · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject:

Please DELETE all names of MINORS in this thread. They can't give permission for their names to be used. Nothing about being PC it is about being LEGAL.

In this context, is over 18 considered a minor? Anyone???

Pops · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:42 pm Post subject:

Tom if you TRY to find a wrong you WILL. There is always going to be something that CAN be looked on as negative. That is why when I WANT to diss something I am VERY OPEN. NOBODY has to GUESS. It hits you right between the eyes.

I have always tried to deal with Jeff with 10X more effort to be postive even in differing views (Because since he is local and I had been on TPIN several years before he posted. It would be assumed that we knew each other..... We don't. I heard about Jeff first when OJ mentioned his book on TPIN.
After all we don't live across the street from each other

And I am a newcomer to the area. We have NEVER met, talked on the phone and although I did send him an email he never responded.)

As for bad blood. I found that out today. And BTW I am somewhat AMAZED to find that out.

I know LOTS of people who write trumpet books, and or teach. We also disagree IN public. Yet we don't hold grudges or harbor ill will. These people even wrote articles for one of my books after YEARS of these open disagreements. (Since Jeff was mentioned 3 times with respect to THAT book I'll add this.) When I sent out my requests for articles I first sent them to friends, then to people I had met and had some contact with.

Why people I knew? Because I would have some idea what they might endorse. I wanted to evenly show various ideas. Some of these came in while I was still sending requests to this group. I then sent to some who I greatly respected but didn't know (Dr. Weast is an example.)

By this time I had several who had discussed a more closed embouchure and embouchure exercises. I had just read Jeff's book by this time and felt he would have been inclined to talk along those same lines. (Lip Clamp, roll in / roll out exercises ect.)

It would be easy for me to stack the book in favor of these ideas. BUT that would not be fair to the people I had gotten to write about the other systems of teaching. I wanted to keep it even and positive.
So now 6 months later speculation about who was invited and who wasn't; who turned me down......
None of this belonged here on this thread either.

So Tom since I KNOW someone NOW I am ONLY allowed to converse with them in private email.

What a load of manure. SEE Tom NO GUESSING involved here. I am dissing the idea (but NOT you) that if someone knows the other poster they can NOT post on this forum.

The line "what are you trying to achieve" is now the offensive part according to Tom.
That seemed to me to be the most IMPORTANT question anyone could ask.
What are you looking to improve? Tone (he implied that was good in the first post and didn't want to change it), range, flexibility, endurance. Much can be done without doing an embouchure change. Even Jeff pointed this out.

So my asking someone why they were thinking about an embouchure change is BAD. I ASK people who email me about MY books too. Hey guess what I give them FREE advice. So I am also wronging me. (I am NEVER talking to me again.)

That would mean that if we talk about alternatives to buying a NEW horn we are wronging a horn seller. (fix the valves, replate it, send it to____ for a custom makeover. Same with mouthpieces (buff the rough spot off of the rim, get it replated, drill the throat out), people who post reviews of books (tell too much and why buy the book), lessons, CDs......

NO topic would be excluded. To be completely PC; we must ignore ALL topics. Only start NEW threads.

No Tom a DISCUSSION board can NOT work that way.

Now in a few days I should be in position to meet Jeff. I WILL go over there and say hi and shake his hand. I have NO bad blood with him. I wish he would sell a million books. Me I'll be happy to sell a half a million.

Pops · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:59 pm Post subject:

CR;
I don't know these people being mentioned but some are mentioned as making all state THIS year.....
There is a great possibility that these HS students are minors.

If they are not nothing to worry about.

I just think we should all give some thought to legal responsibility when we post.

Todd has almost accepted ALL responsibility by allowing posters to post without their real names. Or ANY authentication process.

This site is clearly tied to him.

Something like the rec newsgroup (although yes we know who started it) is NOT funded, hosted, registered.... to that person. They are not responsible for the actions of others.

Some things are worth arguing, others might be, but to me this is just a given. Don't give the guy who owns this site any grief.

_bugleboy · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:55 pm Post subject:

Pops,

Jeff stated that, "All the guys who were mentioned by name are (presently) over 18," in his post.

So, since your post came after Jeff's, I thought you were suggesting that even over-eighteens would be considered minors and pose some legal threat to the TH.

So, can it be decided then, that since all those mentioned are over 18 that there are, in fact, no minors being referred to in this thread?

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-05-12 21:04 ]

clarion89 · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject:

This is pathetic....

INTJ · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 6:37 pm Post subject:

Geez Louize !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it time for me to post another lecture on how to post? Do any of you really want that? Do ya!! Punks!!!!!!!.................Just Kidding.

I think miners should be left alone to do their mining, and I think there are some folks here (3 or 4) who need to e-mail/snail mail/phone each other privately to sort this stuff out. The Trumpet Player Community is too small and too precarious as it is. We don't need to let ego and emotion get in the way of sharing of useful information. Remember, forums such as this are arguably the worst way to communicate. Each post is usually composed with the best of intentions, but almost always read in the worst possible light. Actually, that is quite stupid and illogical of us, don't you think?

Blaine

[ This Message was edited by: afp on 2003-05-12 21:50 ]

Bits&Bytes · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 825

Ok all you buffoons.. (I've always been told you really need to "grab'em" from the first sentence)

I have Jeff's book - looked through and emailed Pops a few times. Bottom line - I think they are both outstanding. Here's the kicker, while books are ok, CD's help more and pictures/videos try to give you some mental road map, they just don't get you the real deal. Its ... like...humm.... imitation crab meet. That stuff just makes you crave the real deal.

The real deal would be to get personal lessons from Jeff or Pops. Something like that you just can't substitute.

B&B

...And furthermore anyone who has a phenomenal tone like me, but only a range of three notes and the endurance of 27 seconds ought to be given free lessons out of charity anyway...

Pops · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject:

Sorry CR;
I missed seeing that they were all of legal age.

However; still we know what state they live in and what city /school they are in. So full names is really BAD. All of a sudden their privacy has been invaded.

Come on look at ALL of the people who are MEMBERS of the TH that REFUSE to even use a first name.

Why be LESS respectful of students than of our forum members? Shouldn't we try to do it the other way around?

Blaine;
Go ahead and lecture us.

I am on 5 trumpet lists and THIS is by far the most OUT of hand forum of the 5.

It is TOO easy to be negative here because so many expect it and read it into posts and then respond that way.

No rules enforced.....

THerefore
I'm back on lurk mode.

Cya in the funnies.

Vessehune · Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 7:36 pm Post subject:

I would just like to thank both Pops and Jeff for taking time out of their schedules to try and offer free advice to help those of us that need it.

I also want to appologize for those members of TH who feel it is their duty to find all the errors and right and wrongs of every post and then make a big deal out of nothing! Pops was just trying to help someone out, and just happened to leave his signature which advertises his books in his post!! Ohh no its the begining of the end. I know that if I was talented enough to write a book I would sure as heck advertise it in my signature.

THANKS Pops and Jeff. Although some may not say I will.

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 5:40 am Post subject:

The idea that there are "legal issues" regarding the names of students used on this forum is absolute and total BS.

The names of the All-State students listed in this thread is a matter of public record, including the school they attend (or attended) and the names of their Band Directors.

http://www.tmea.org/031_All_State_Organizations/AllStateIndex.htm

The idea that Todd, as the owner of this forum, is poised on the brink of legal disaster because of anything said on this thread, is absolute and total BS.

If anything, I suspect that Todd would rather that posters quit bringing up phony fear-based legal threats, and just have us deal amongst ourselves with conflicts as they arise.

And they WILL arise. All of the Rodney Kings out there just don't get it.

All forums have an inherent amount of drama. It's the nature of the beast.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net