Could anyone point the way to Bauerfeind Valves

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

I am guessing their some German site that is not down with google. I can not find them with google at all. I find all kinds of other things though with that name including body braces made by a company with the same name!

If they do not have a web site shame on them then some nice photos of their valve close up would be nice since so much hype surrounds them! I am fairly sure I will never own anything with a set of their valves!That is based solely on the cost not any personal dislike for them!
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nordlandstrompet · Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject:

Bauerfeind doesn't have any website.
Their valves are really superb quality.

Here is a picture of a valve set being assembled at Taylor Trumpets

This is what it looks like when the trumpet is ready to play

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gzent · Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject:

I have them in the stainless steel option on my Harrelson Bravura.

Yes they are awesome and expensive. Apparently, they have no desire to increase their production so they don't really advertise. Getting them to sell you their product directly is a long, nearly impossible process.
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CHAMP · Veteran Member Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 127

start walking east...

MarkGD · Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject:

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

Thanks for the photo I have had no look every link I have tried to checkout has been dead end! So I appreciate it.

The valve assembly over all looks great and looks very robust and solid. Visually it almost looks like an Olds Valve body on steroids in term of the lines and profile. those caps though are defiantly a nice touch. So many companies use what I think are cheap looking and feeling caps. Bach top and bottom caps look and feel almost as Cheap as Jupiter low end top and bottom caps. All too often I think a trumpet's looks are ruined by last minute after thought type things like cheap looking caps or spit valves etc......

So I take it they are available in stainless steel and in other materials like Nickel Silver? I also say something about Bronze being offered on some of Harrelsons models? Do they mean the valve bores ie the casing is machined from solid Bronze? I ask because I have an old Holton that is machined from Bronze I assume castings and I like that old Holtons valves a lot.

The pistons though look just like my Stainless Steel Jupiter! I am sure they are built with better fit and finish I just mean design wise visually they look identical. Same style of guide, same color of stainless steel, same gold finish on the piston liners, same gray felts etc.....Not trying to insult anyone like I said I am just saying the pistons look like the Jupiter the rest of the assembly looks really robust. I like those large massive brass's between the tuning slide outer tubes those look massive. Are they solid or hollowed out?

I would never attempt to get them to sell me anything really it is outside of my current price range! No one in the audience can tell what valves I have and I am guessing no one really sounds better on Bauerfiend then they do Getzen or Olds valves even if they they are made better and to tighter clearances with less tolerance stacking etc........In my mind Bauerfiend is more about bragging rights then better sound or more durable instrument. I would love to see some product testing though like the test Getzen did on a competitors Monel Valves. I am very curious to see how stainless steel would come out on a durability test as I am sure others are?

Do they have any published stat's on how tight the pistons are fitted or the rockwell hardness of the stainless steel or the type of SS?

So besides a handful of custom builders like Hub Van Lar and Harrelson who all use's their valves? I do not recall any large companies listing them as a supplier? I know Taylor uses them are they considered large or small custom?

What do these sell for to the OEM's? I am guessing around $300 to $500 based on the mark up that companies add for these valves instead of what ever they normally use but that is just a "silly wild @#$ guess" SWAG. The above was self censored by myself I would not swear on a forum!
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TrentAustin · Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject:

there's probably a good reason why so many manufacturers use them.
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oliver king · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1742

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Maarten van Weverwijk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377

They've recently been bought by Dutch company Adams.
The future will tell whether that's a good thing or not.

MvW.

camel · Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject:

Bauerfeind was bought by a Dutch company. ( Adams, the guys that are famous for their timpany and more recently their flugels )
Because they had problems increasing the capacity. Adams hopes together they can increase the production.

Maarten van Weverwijk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377

Retlaw · Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:10 am Post subject:

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

I used Bauerfeind valves on the first dozen or so Scodwell USA Flugels and first of all they were exactly like any other business concern...you pay them the money and they build you their product. Forget about them being hard to get and other misleading statements here. In 1988 when I was working with Don Getzen [at his company DEG], we used Bauerfeind valves on the flugels and piccolos. Bauerfeind at that time was owned by the Swiss company Willson, which DEG distributed in North America. Then the company was sold to a very nice German fellow who was who I did business with. A simple telephone call to Nauheim, send a bank draft and six weeks later my valves showed up in Las Vegas. Really tough. At the second to last ITG I was speaking with Hub van Laar and he indicated he was contemplating buying the company, but at the Harrisburg ITG this year, Miel Adams [Adams Muziekcentrale B.V.] told me they had bought the Bauerfeind company and would eventually expand production, however, not at the expense of quality. This would not be an immediate proposition he told me. The famous Bauerfeind quality is quite well known as is the famous cost of their valves due to a sinking dollar worldwide. That's the reason I switched to a Kanstul made valve set and I will state with no uncertainty, I could see or hear no difference between the INOX stainless steel German material used in Bauerfeind valves opposed to the Monel valve sets Kanstul supplied me. The main difference to me was INOX stainless will stick if left untouched for a few days [like say, if you miss a few days of practice] . Same scenario with Amado waterkeys if you don't oil them on a regular basis. It's a stainless steel on brass thing I guess. The European horn makers seem to use Bauerfeind valves which makes sense for them. They're very good and available locally [sort of]. Whether or not Adams keeps the supply line open remains to be seen I guess. With the rest of the world catching up quickly in quality production of brass instrument parts, it will be interesting to see where specially trumpet makers go to source their parts.
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Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available only at Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

I amnot saying that the valve block does not affect sound. The mass 9of the valve block makes a huge difference in it's responce and how tight or lose it is going to slot. THis is why many companies offers standard weight,heavy weight and light weight valve sections. What I was getting at is that a properly designed trumpet wearing Getzen or Olds valves would play just as nicely and sound just as good. The mass of the valve block is part of the equation when designing and assembling a trumpet for a specific purpose. Outside of it's mass though the piston are either fitted tight enough to do their job or they are not. The Stainless steel is either harder then Plated Nickel Silver which has a Rockwell Hardness of 75 or it is not. The air either flows properly through them or it does not. I am sure that one reason the valve body has to be so massive is to make up for the lack of mass in the piston itself as stainless steel pistons are lighter then all other types of pistons. They are also far cheaper to manufacture then any other type of piston. The Getzens and Olds Valve bodies have their mass more spread out between the valves and the pistons. The Bauerfiend has almost all of it's mass percentage in the valve assembly and the caps and almost none of it's mass in the piston itself.

If we know what type of stainless steel they use we could test with out using a precious Bauerfiend piston. If the it is the same material as Jupiter we could get and test a cheap Jupiter to give us an idea on the rate of wear of Stainless steel versus nickel silver and do Rockwell test on them. As massive as the valve block is I am sure they can fit their pistons tighter then most because with that much mass in the area a trumpet players grip is not nickly to deform the bore enough to interfere with the pistons travel. The more rigid the bore the tighter one can fit the piston. The tighter you can safely fit the piston the better it is going to seal and the faster and smoother it will fill with a light weight oil!

Well if Adams can increase the production capacity with out a drop in quality and with out a increase in the clearances that will be good for everyone. It would be interesting to see their set up! IF they sold to me for what they sold to people like Taylor I sure I could afford a set but not at the markup builders charge for them! Increased production would me more side channels to procure them from.

In the end we would have to build to identical trumpets with one of their valve blocks and one from say Olds that had been re-done to like new. We would have to have the exact same mass on them so that would mean heavy SWE drim kit more then likely for the Olds and the stock caps for the Bauerfiend etc.... So I do not see two trumpets being built with either Olds or Getzen valve to compare to anything with Bauerfiend valves. It is not likely to happen? The mass of the horns would have to be with in a few grams of each other and we would have to try to get the weight in the same area's as much as passable.

Mass and where it is placed is what affects the trumpets. This is why we have heavy and light braces, heavy and light valve caps, weights for the bottom of pistons. This is why moving the braces around to different nodal points make a difference. It is all about the mass and where it interacts with the sound energy traveling through the horn. So I am sure the valve assembly makes a difference but not enough that I would get booed off stage with Getzen valves but a standing ovation with Bauerfiend if you follow me. The fact that they are optional with some trumpet builders tells us they are not a must have but a luxury item. If it was a must have then they would not use anything less and they would just raise their prices to cover the cost of the better part that must be used?

The comparision of the two car's is not a good one. Depending on what you want the car to do the old Detroit steel on the left side of the screen could easily be a better pick. Faster as in sports car's does not alway mean better technology or materials. Case in point It took until recently for the Corvette to include technology and materials that my 1986 Toyota 4Runner came from the factory with. So my much slower and older Toyota 4Runner had technology and laterals in it that where 19 year ahead of GM's Corvette. So while the Corvette was more expensive and faster and handled better it was bested by a $16,000 when new 1986 Toyota 4Runner with regards to the materials it was built and the technology it came with. Historically Porsche and all the other Exotics are known to be prone to lots of problems when used as daily drivers not my idea of a good exchange for the money you spend. When they are in the shop they are no good to the owner. Ferrari to this day has quality control issues with head lights, interior electrical and controls in the cockpit etc... So again price and exclusivity does not gurantee quality or durability!!!
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Retlaw · Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:13 am Post subject:

Thanks for the interesting post Tony....

Walter

oliver king · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1742

Does Selmer Paris make their own valve blocks or are they supplied from Bauerfeind?
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RandyManhandler · Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:02 am Post subject:

I hear that the Chinese are making great copies.
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Retlaw · Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:10 am Post subject:

Jo-Rae-Us · New Member Joined: 13 Nov 2014 Posts: 9

Hi.
My Cornet made by Andy Taylor has the same valves.

When I bought the cornet, I asked Andy for the specs on it, and he mentioned the Bauerfiend valves as being his choice for this instrument.

I love them..!

chuck in ny · Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject:

now that this ancient thread has been bumped..
i have the same feeling as tony scodwell. valves are valves as long as they are well done. two of mine are kanstul built and one is a carol brass. between kanstul and carol both have the same feel and experience. both were very slightly balky when new needing frequent oiling and flushing and both broke in to smooth and fast valve action.
i do know carol brass makes stainless steel pistons, however, it is never foremost in mind when picking it up and actuating the valves. the carol cornet was purchased for response and sound at a bargain basement price, and the kanstul instruments were purchased because flip oakes WT'd 'em and they are real players.