Air speed

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

OOoopps!!!! ---sorry!! --I pressed the wrong button!! ---I appear to be in the SC forum!!

I am are'nt I?

Roddy o-iii<O

P.S......

"If you are building your chops instead of building your abs. you are building the wrong muscles" -Tastee 1

" Many are likely to disagree that the tongue does little when playing but that's their prerogative. If you allow you air alone to do as much as possible when you play, possibilities are endless. The tongue affects the flow of air and can cause serious problems when playing. A far a better way to direct the air stream is to adjust the speed and flow of the air with the abs." Tastee 2

" Fast vs more. Many people who play trumpet never seem to grasp the concept of faster/more air. To most, the two are synonomous. In order to play well you must be able to make the distinction between velocity and volume." Scott Engelbright

<back to lurk mode>

I used to practice getting stronger lip muscles--Thank goodness that's all over!!

http://www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC

brnt99 · Regular Member Joined: 17 Nov 2001 Posts: 82

So some say that playing high is all about lip contraction, some say its all about tongue level, and some say its all about air speed pushed by the abs. Maybe they all work. I suspect they all have there advantages and all have their disadvantages

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2002 10:53 am Post subject:

I have to agree with comebackkid!! From the standpoint in physics he is totally right. Unluckily it doesn't help your body and brain, if you read some physics books to be a better player. You just gotta play, then it's gonna work.
It might be interesting for the moment to know, that faster air means higher pitch. Actually that was the question of the guy that started this topic.
So who of you guys can give some usable input on how to speed up the air, maybe give some exercises tips, that sort of stuff.
That is what I am on this forum for. I want to learn, not read about any guy's online-fights!

Sincerely
PB

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2002 1:08 pm Post subject:

trumpetgeek,

If you believe comebackkid is right and agree with him then prove it.

When I hold a note and increase the air speed the volume increases. Does something else happen when you hold a note and increase the air speed?

When I increase lip tension and allow the air speed to decrease the pitch goes up. If you are able to do this, does something different happen for you?

These observations are not in line with a view point that air speed and higher pitch are related. They would appear to be contray to such a position. You go on to say,

"It might be interesting for the moment to know, that faster air means higher pitch. Actually that was the question of the guy that started this topic."

Actually that wasn't the question of the guy that started this topic. Tim, the guy that started this topic, originally asked,

"Is air speed important, and if so, what are some practice tips for understanding and improvement? Thanks in advance.

Nothing in that original question about air speed and higher pitch. It's just a general query regarding air speed.

Your statement,

"It might be interesting for the moment to know, that faster air means higher pitch."

in my opinion is incorrect. Many people agree with you, but I have yet to see evidence that this is the case in a trumpet player's embouchure. Why don't you start defending your case (if the spirit is willing, of course

) by refuting or discrediting my observations above; and then follow that with evidence that supports your position that greater air speed means higher pitch.

Regards,

Charles Raymond

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-02-02 16:11 ]

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2002 3:44 pm Post subject:

bugleboy,

there is no critique in this post at all and I don't want to start another one of those arguments.
To me it just seems clear, that the faster the air moves, the higher the pitch gets.
I am not a physicist nor a professional trumpet player and I can only learn from things that other people tell me, whether I can prove it or not.

***When I hold a note and increase the air speed the volume increases. Does something else happen when you hold a note and increase the air speed? ***

When you increase the air speed, the volume doesn't necessarily have to increase. For example: You can have a very thin air stream through a hole, that is 0,000001 inch in diameter. The air can go through there with 500 miles/hour. Now you have a hole that is 1 inch in diameter and the air goes through that with 10 miles per hour.... See, the volume of the slower moving air is bigger. Volume doesn't have anything to do with Speed. You are right, that Volume and Speed in daily trumpet playing are connected really close, but this is just, because most trumpet players can't increase Speed without increasing Volume, they have never learned to do it properly.
Also of course, in trumpet playing you don't have to deal with 1 inch holes or 0,000001 holes. It is just supposed to give you the idea, that air speed and air volume aren't connected.
Also, have you whistled and then tried to whistle higher just by giving more air? That just doesn't work. The note will become really loud and then there won't be any note any more, just air coming out. The pitch changes SLIGHTLY to higher. Now if you work with your tongue and increase the air speed that way, you can whistle higher, without getting more air through, but maintain the same dynamic level.

***When I increase lip tension and allow the air speed to decrease the pitch goes up. If you are able to do this, does something different happen for you? ***

I haven't really measured it or so, but I would say just from the logical point of view, that air speed goes up, when you increase lip tension, while maintaining the same air support. Again try this: open your mouth as wide as possible and blow out really slowly. Now close your embouchure slowly. While doing this hold your hand in front of your mouth. You will feel, that the air goes faster when you make the hole smaller. Again, this is a real extreme example, but it shows you the basic way everything works.

I hope I could "prove" to you, that air speed and higher pitch are related. I know, that air speed is not all you need to play a high pitch (but I would really want to know whatelse will help me play high), but it is definately a very important part.

Sincerely
PB

PS: If there is some missunderstandings, I am from Germany and it might be that my english isn't as accurate as most of you guys' is.

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetgeek234 on 2002-02-02 18:50 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2002 4:23 pm Post subject:

trumpetgeek,

I don't think we're talking about the same things here. Good luck with your air speed.

Regards,

CR

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2002 5:19 pm Post subject:

Dave,

I guess mental images can be a good tool for learning things. I like analogies that can graphically image more abstract things that aren't readily apparent. I just don't associate air speed, imaging or otherwise, with high notes. As I've said many times, hold a note, blow the air faster and the note gets louder, every time without exception (at least for me). If air speed determines register, how is it possible to hold onto a note while increasing the air speed. It should be impossible. So what's the answer? It seems obvious that air speed affects volume.

I'm a little unclear on why thinking of notes as being farther away, as opposed to higher, makes them any easier to deal with. I mean a C4 sits way up there on the 5th ledger line and you think of it as being way across the street. So what has been gained? Is there anything easier or better about being across the street than sitting on the 5th ledger line? Actually I think of neither. To me C4 is an octave above C3. That's all. I prefer reading them an octave down with an 8va marking, anyway. Much easier. If you want to read ledger lines, take up trombone.

I also find it is easier to access an extreme high note (i.e., A4 - G5) by playing the octave below first and slurring up. I have a little six note lick that I use in this regard (nothing to do with the Caruso Six Notes) when I practice to get these notes. It works pretty good for me.

Regards,

CR

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-02-02 20:22 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2002 9:11 pm Post subject:

Generally, it is easier to play loud than soft. Many players can ONLY play loud in the upper reg. If air speed determines volume it would follow that playing high notes is easier when played loud by blowing the air faster.

It then becomes easy to suddenly start associating air speed with frequency of vibration when the air speed is really making the notes loud and hence easier to play.

Slurring octaves is a good way to hear what you're trying to play. If you can play a C3 then you can hear a C4.

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-02-03 00:14 ]

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2002 12:37 am Post subject:

That's what I said before:
Many players don't know how to make their air speed faster without blowing more air through the horn. If you use your lungs to make the air faster, the notes will get louder too, because the only thing the lungs can do is compress and press more air out. That is, because you can't make the bronchial tubes smaller. So if you compress your lungs at a higher level, automatically more air will come through. The speed of the air will also become faster.
Now if you would just increase the air speed, without increasing the volume, the pitch will get higher. In order to do that you mustn't use your lungs, otherwise it will all be senseless.
Now if you would just use your tongue it will work. It won't work to that extend though, that you could play any note with the same lung pressure. As I understand it, the air speed has to become several hundred times bigger to play 3 or 4 octaves higher. Well you gotta use your lungs for that, that's why volume and speed connect in daily trumpet playing.

PB

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

"Sir Isaac Newton's Third Law of Motion=For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

....SO that means that if you breathe in BIG it's gotta come out BIG!!

Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

Pat · Veteran Member Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 396

The Newton law does seem to apply to the posts on this subject in more ways than one.

Seriously though, without knowing (or perhaps caring) whether there is a scientific basis for it, the approach described by Dave Bacon has been helpful to me, particularly playing wide intervals. Thinking of increasing the air speed helps me, for example, play from g in the staff to g above the staff especially at a soft dynamic level. Thinking of opening up the oral cavity and using plenty of slow warm air helps me going from g in the staff to g below and getting a good sound.

fzr Phil · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2002 5:15 pm Post subject:

I think the concept of 'air speed' depends a lot on what concept of lip set (embouchure?) is being used in relation to it. i.e, set point/ closed/ open setting (apeture).

with a 'heavy' closed set like sc or carouso The air can be applied more steadily-increasing /constant. The chop compression is more in control of the pitch, the air (lungs) providing both dynamic range (loud-soft) and the additional support (pressure) required for higher pitches.

Different approaches might have a more constant lip set point e.g G on stave, and have more variable air compression (pressure) to control pitch and air speed (helped with tongue arch), with loud-soft perhaps controlled more with lip i.e how much air let through. this aproach is helped a lot by faster air = higher
i personally refer this type as 'semi-closed'. also lip/mp buzzing may be more prevalent.

open sets can use tremendous amounts of air, a lot more than might be used if you use a more closed set.

Luckily our brains are clever'er than us and they take care of the finite adjustments between the balance of chops <=> air , ensuing the correct pitch, volume, tone e.t.c.
We have to wait for it to become 2nd nature though (practice!!!!)

it is easy to experiment/ play with this. e.g try to make either the chops constant and vary the air or vica verca, constant air and vary chops.

If you are making progress with a particular system and certain analogys help then great!
stick with them.

But, also important to bear in mind with our playing ailments, before fixing a problem it is helpful to know what is at fault!

I hope this 'personal' outlook is relevant to the post.
_________________
Phil Martin
Callet Sima Trumpet - GR NB63*** / dw3
Besson Sovereign tenor horn DW 3
Yamaha Maestro Cornet RW3
Yamaha pro 631 Flugel dw3fL
Yamaha YCR6610T Soprano
Elkhart pocket trumpet
www.thundersleybrassband.co.uk

comebackkid · Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:43 pm Post subject:

Claude Gordon used to use the following to illustrate the importance of the tongue in controlling pitch. I encourage you to try the following experiment:

Play a middle a. Hold the note, and think consiously about the position of your tongue. Lock your tongue in place. Now with your tongue locked in place, ascend through the partials (valves 1 and 2). Make sure your tongue doesnt move in any way. How high did
you get? How was your tone?

Now do the same thing starting with the high a, and descending. remember not to move your tongue at all! How far down did you get? how was your tone?

Please give some feedback after you try this.

Most people will find that they use their tongue to a much greater extent than they believed.

Since there are so many people that are interested in whether lip tension alone is responsable for controlling pitch, the real question here should be......

How can changing the level of the tongue increase lip tension? Of course it doesn't. The tongue is simply channelling the air to make it move faster or slower.

Once again, try the experiment and post your results. I am curious if this changes anyones perception, or if it confirms anyones existing beliefs.

fzr Phil · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:36 am Post subject:

i tried the experiment just now,
with my tongue in its normal position (resting against/ behind my lower lip) i found no change up or down the scale. But, as i use an sc set up, this is normal. The tongue does not play the same role as in other set-up's and is not used to alter size of the mouth cavity in the same way to affect the air stream. similarily for articulation. This is the fundamental difference between the SC set up and most everything else.

i am interested to hear more comments after trying the experiment.
_________________
Phil Martin
Callet Sima Trumpet - GR NB63*** / dw3
Besson Sovereign tenor horn DW 3
Yamaha Maestro Cornet RW3
Yamaha pro 631 Flugel dw3fL
Yamaha YCR6610T Soprano
Elkhart pocket trumpet
www.thundersleybrassband.co.uk

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:21 pm Post subject:

Phil,

I couldn't agree with you more. I also have no noticeable tongue movement from second space A (A2) up to A5 and then down from A2 to double pedal A. For me the tongue is a valve. It stops and starts (releases) the air. It seems to do this most efficiently when it is in a forward position.

Regards,

CR

John Mohan · Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:58 am Post subject:

_bugleboy · Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:00 am Post subject:

fzr Phil · Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:49 pm Post subject:

in view of the new thread about tongue levels, i still believe there may be value in the more simple experiment described by comeback kid before (11 feb). In my opinion, based on the unsubstantiated evidence provided by the experimentee (me

), there may be value in realising the co-existance of aproaches towards the goal of succesful playing.

Originally, after i tried the experiment using my normal aproach i changed some parameters to experiment further.
instead of varying my 'lip tension' with steady air, i kept it fixed and tried 'the test' again. indeed i found that good tone was limited to a few semitones.
i then tried again but varied my tongue level in a fashion that i do not normally apply to my playing ( raised the front of my tongue) and found that i could then maintain the tone a lot better without adjusting the lip or air.

for me it proved the co-existence of aproaches and how easy it is for the confusion of right and wrong w.r.t air speed.

Considering the original question of this thread,
[/quote]
Is air speed important, and if so, what are some practice tips for understanding and improvement? [/quote]

i felt it was even more valuable as the experimentee can discover what style of aproach is currently being employed and know better where to look for the best advice for further improvement.

If i ever find that i cannot progress with my present aproach i will certainly consider changing. i have all the info required already. ( pop's books, this forum e.t.c)
i honestly feel i now understand better how it would apply to my playing.
i had never understood the concept of tongue arch, and it is fair to say i don't think i had ever employed one conciously into my playing before.

all the best

_________________
Phil Martin
-dedication, thats what you need....

[ This Message was edited by: fzr phil on 2002-02-15 19:11 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:33 pm Post subject:

FWIW, I think most of this discussion is moot. Whatever works to get the notes out is fine; different people will use different analogies. I personally like to think "fast" and "out", but know (at least, I think I know) that it's a mental image whose purpose is to get my mind off analyzing everything. The following is once again my opinion, with at least some thought and eddication (EE, couple of graduate acoustics classes, IHF licensed audio consultant, once upon a time soundman) behind it. More than likely y'all will think differently -- so be it!

I think blowing faster causes me to tense my lips to help control the air better, which naturally leads to increasing pitch. I believe that to be the fundamental reason thinking "faster air" or "more air" results in higher pitch.

If I put two pliable membranes (let's call them -- oh, I don't know -- how about... "lips"?) in close proximity, preferably touching, and blow air through them, I can generate a buzz. Works for party favors, some kids whistles and duck calls, and my mini blinds now and then. If I blow harder, without changing the tension, only the amplitude will increase. This is true until a higher mode is excited, causing a doubling in pitch. If I attach a rope to a wall and swing it like a jump rope, I can twirl it in one big loop, or get it going faster and make two loops. A poor analogy to vibrating lips (err, "membranes") but a useful visual aide, I think. As higher modes are excited, I can generate harmonically related frequencies (standing waves or what have you) on the rope. If I loosen the rope, it'll drop back to one loop (wave) again; if I tighten it, I may get three or four nodes. It's much easier to tighten or loosen the rope to change modes than to make it do it solely by changing amplitude. Does this make sense?

Now, as best I can tell, if I play low note and focus very hard on not increasing the tension while blowing harder, the pitch doesn't change, only the volume. If I focus on the wind, I unconsciously tighten my chops to hold and control the increased airflow, and the pitch rises. Of course, virtually every time I do this I am also thinking of a higher pitch. If I think of a louder sound on the same pitch, I tend to try to keep my lips with exactly the same tension, but may manipulate them to utilize more surface area.

So, when I think "faster and higher" my chops tense to control the faster air and there you go -- a higher pitch! Now it is true a greater pressure differential is needed to vibrate the membranes faster, and of course blowing harder does this for me, too. The good thing is, I can accomplish what I want by thinking of the note and blowing the air, rather than trying to visualize and manipulate the complexity of the musculature etc. around my chops.

So, to my mind, blowing harder produces the desired result, whether louder or higher sound, but the actual (lip etc.) mechanics to accomplish the change is different in each case. This is hard to put into words, and likely I've done poorly, but at least I've stuck an arrow in the ground for y'all to shoot at.

As for the tongue, my teacher encourages keeping it as low in the mouth for as long as possible to get a fuller sound. I find this to be true -- an "oh" is better than an "eee" sound. I agree with Pops: if your tongue has reached the roof of your mouth at high C, how are you gonna' go any higher? It's true the tongue plays a significant role in changing pitch (by manipulating the airflow, perhaps providing a sudden burst -- or deficient -- of air to "pop" between notes) but when I use just the tongue to get high notes the sound is pretty thin. If I blow only air, and change my tongue from flat in the bottom of my mouth to up and forward, the sound gets much "thinner" and the pitch of the fuzzy airstream goes up (try it and see). On the other hand, if I try to keep it down to high C and beyond, it gets really, really hard for me to play the higher register. I suspect the better developed your embouchure, the less a role the tongue will play in achieving "high" notes (until you reach the top of your range), though it may still play a major role in helping the airflow for attacks, slurs, etc. In fact, I think the tongue does play a big role, but in getting to the notes, and less so in sustaining them until near the top of my range.

Not all that clear -- sorry! It's late and I'm tired. At any rate, that should keep the flames going for a while.

May you share my joy in music - Don

p.s. If you like the candle analogy (I do), try this. Stand in front of a mirror and blow a gentle, full stream of air at your nose, or a candle on your nose if you prefer. Now, place the candle on the wall behind you (reflected in the mirror) and try to blow it out (with a fast, focused stream of air). What happens to your lips and such? Ahh, the mental game of trumpeting...
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-02-17 15:53 ]