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butxifxnot Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2353
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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dbacon wrote: | The Lead Player should be a master musician...he makes the music sound great, plays the sound/style the way the composer intended....if your focus is high notes, you're just looking at one facet of Lead Playing....obcession for the CC is a clue as to where someone's attitude is..I look to George Graham as an example of a master lead player..he did have pretty much unlimited range....but his focus was playing lead....getting the sound/style/time etc right. High notes were a part of his thinking but not more than it needs to be....make music not screaming.
He didn't wake up thinking how high..he woke up thinking how good. |
+1 _________________ "Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Quote: | dbacon wrote:
Quote: | The Lead Player should be a master musician...he makes the music sound great, plays the sound/style the way the composer intended....if your focus is high notes, you're just looking at one facet of Lead Playing....obcession for the CC is a clue as to where someone's attitude is..I look to George Graham as an example of a master lead player..he did have pretty much unlimited range....but his focus was playing lead....getting the sound/style/time etc right. High notes were a part of his thinking but not more than it needs to be....make music not screaming. |
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He didn't wake up thinking how high..he woke up thinking how good.
+1
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Yes, the Dark Side is very powerful... feel the MUSIC flow thru you... _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: DB |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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The biggest mistake most young players make, is thinking playing high notes makes one a lead player. While a lead player does need range and endurance,it takes a lot more than just those things.
There's sound,reading ,feeling or interpretation phrasing,accuracy,consistency, and a certain type of personality. All this will hopefully come with maturity ,and listening. |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | The biggest mistake most young players make, is thinking playing high notes makes one a lead player. While a lead player does need range and endurance,it takes a lot more than just those things. |
100% agree !!! I play lead, quite often its by playing the 2nd, 3rd and 4th parts!
Lead, sort for Leader, it's not part dependent. _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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tgm21234 Regular Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2011 Posts: 33 Location: Baltimore,Md
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:45 am Post subject: Deleloping Range |
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I used a method called Top Tones, but I could just go so far.
Does anyone know what method Doc Severinsen (spelling) used to develop his range?
I read a brochure that Doc wrote stating that he uses the Clark Characteristic Studies religiously, but I'm sure he did other things.
I remember John Ware saying if he were on an island, and could have only one study book, it would be the Clark book. |
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CRJAZZMAN Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2001 Posts: 340 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dave's statement should be required to be read daily by HS lead players everywhere!
"obcession for the CC is a clue as to where someone's attitude is.."
That says it all.
Personally I'm a much better musician when I'm not concerned about my range. _________________ Matt Canfield
Can email me at crjazzman@yahoo.com
I do not check the email address listed in my profile.
King Legend .462 in silver
Bobby Shew Lead and Flugel mpcs |
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2-5-1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 1381
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: | Quote: | The biggest mistake most young players make, is thinking playing high notes makes one a lead player. While a lead player does need range and endurance,it takes a lot more than just those things. |
100% agree !!! I play lead, quite often its by playing the 2nd, 3rd and 4th parts!
Lead, sort for Leader, it's not part dependent. |
Yes it is. The first player (if were talking about a big band) is the lead player. If the whole section is playing together, and you're trying to lead from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chair, that's just rude. _________________ www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
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tgm21234 Regular Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2011 Posts: 33 Location: Baltimore,Md
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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CRJAZZMAN wrote: | Dave's statement should be required to be read daily by HS lead players everywhere!
"obcession for the CC is a clue as to where someone's attitude is.."
That says it all.
Personally I'm a much better musician when I'm not concerned about my range. |
THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR. IT SHOULD BE IN THE BIBLE. |
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joshdlym New Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Pittsboro NC
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: Re: What is the best method for increasing one's range? |
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spyke wrote: | I know it may not be the thing I need to focus on most, but I just wanted to hear some recommendations as to what I should be doing to developing my high range. I have a deep-seated wish to be able to play double high Cs. Thanks! |
Practice makes perfect, and try going down the scale to super low notes, my director once told me the lower you can play, the higher you can play, so, if you can learn to play lower and lower with a good sound, you may be able to play and higher with a good sound. |
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davidkoch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 1298 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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CRJAZZMAN wrote: |
Personally I'm a much better musician when I'm not concerned about my range. |
To me this means that if I'm not concerned about certain notes that are still shaky, I will be able to play it much more musically.
Just what I took this as. YMMV etc. _________________ Hi, my name is David and I'm a trumpetaholic. |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Yes it is. The first player (if were talking about a big band) is the lead player. If the whole section is playing together, and you're trying to lead from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chair, that's just rude. |
No, and your totally missing the point. It's NOT about WHAT your playing, it's about LEADERSHIP. Are you the LEADER of the section? Do you think that's PART dependent? A LEADER knows who would play the PARTS best depending on there skill and musical interpolation. If I only played the lead part (better to say the 1st part I think) on every piece of music we played, then some musicality could be lost. Heres a good example:
Take two songs, one is a bright and lively, swing tune. I would take lead (1st part) on that one because it favors the style/sound I produce the best. The other song is a slow, ballade type song. Maybe the person who played say 3rd part on the bright and lively would play lead (1st part) on that tune because it favors there style/sound.
Does that mean he is now the "leader" of the section?
So you see, you can play lead (leader) from a different part. NOTHING RUDE ABOUT THAT !!! Rude would be hogging the lead (1st )part all the time... IMHO _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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joshdlym New Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2011 Posts: 8 Location: Pittsboro NC
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: | Quote: | Yes it is. The first player (if were talking about a big band) is the lead player. If the whole section is playing together, and you're trying to lead from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chair, that's just rude. |
No, and your totally missing the point. It's NOT about WHAT your playing, it's about LEADERSHIP. Are you the LEADER of the section? Do you think that's PART dependent? A LEADER knows who would play the PARTS best depending on there skill and musical interpolation. If I only played the lead part (better to say the 1st part I think) on every piece of music we played, then some musicality could be lost. Heres a good example:
Take two songs, one is a bright and lively, swing tune. I would take lead (1st part) on that one because it favors the style/sound I produce the best. The other song is a slow, ballade type song. Maybe the person who played say 3rd part on the bright and lively would play lead (1st part) on that tune because it favors there style/sound.
Does that mean he is now the "leader" of the section?
So you see, you can play lead (leader) from a different part. NOTHING RUDE ABOUT THAT !!! Rude would be hogging the lead (1st )part all the time... IMHO |
I completely agree, the lead trumpet in the band i play in is usually a first part, but is the leader because when we split off and practice he leads the whole trumpet section in practice, and he has played 2, 3, and been the leader, like you said, it all depends on there leadership. |
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jonalan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2005 Posts: 705 Location: "Show Me"
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: | Quote: | Yes it is. The first player (if were talking about a big band) is the lead player. If the whole section is playing together, and you're trying to lead from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chair, that's just rude. |
Take two songs, one is a bright and lively, swing tune. I would take lead (1st part) on that one because it favors the style/sound I produce the best. The other song is a slow, ballade type song. Maybe the person who played say 3rd part on the bright and lively would play lead (1st part) on that tune because it favors there style/sound.
Does that mean he is now the "leader" of the section? |
Maybe not, but he is the "lead" player. If you are the leader of a section, by title, but choose to play the 3rd part on a given song, you darn well better be following the lead player of that song, in terms of style, phrasing, dynamics, etc., _________________ Stomvi VRII Bb
Kanstul 1525 Flugel
GR pieces |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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+100 percent. In this context, it means leading while playing. You can have a section leader who is NOT the lead player. You can have split leads. In tis context, it refers to whoever is playing the lead for the work in question.
Only one person can and should be driving the train while the section is playing. That's the lead player, if only for that tune, and if you're leading from the 2nd/3rd4th, eetc, you are being a determinant to the section. A section player should follow the lead's lead. If you disagree with the way something is being done, bring it up when not playing. A good lead player will take it into consideration. As mentioned here before, a good lead player is lead not primarily because he can play the high notes, but hopefully because he can lead the section (again, not necessarily the same as being a leader when not playing).
Leading from a chair other than first is a great way jonalan wrote: | garrett901 wrote: | Quote: | Yes it is. The first player (if were talking about a big band) is the lead player. If the whole section is playing together, and you're trying to lead from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chair, that's just rude. |
Take two songs, one is a bright and lively, swing tune. I would take lead (1st part) on that one because it favors the style/sound I produce the best. The other song is a slow, ballade type song. Maybe the person who played say 3rd part on the bright and lively would play lead (1st part) on that tune because it favors there style/sound.
Does that mean he is now the "leader" of the section? |
Maybe not, but he is the "lead" player. If you are the leader of a section, by title, but choose to play the 3rd part on a given song, you darn well better be following the lead player of that song, in terms of style, phrasing, dynamics, etc., |
_________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces |
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2-5-1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 1381
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Does that mean he is now the "leader" of the section? |
yea, he's playing lead.
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make. When I'm hired to play second trumpet, that's what I play. I don't EVER lead from the second chair or whichever chair I'm playing.
Overplaying/leading from any other book than lead, no matter what the genre of music you are playing is total amateur hour. _________________ www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
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trptStudent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Posts: 2572
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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2-5-1 wrote: | Quote: | Does that mean he is now the "leader" of the section? |
yea, he's playing lead.
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make. When I'm hired to play second trumpet, that's what I play. I don't EVER lead from the second chair or whichever chair I'm playing.
Overplaying/leading from any other book than lead, no matter what the genre of music you are playing is total amateur hour. |
I tend to agree. I'm predominantly a section player as I just haven't put in the time to build up the chops (physically and musically) to lead a section. One of the more important lessons that I learned was that for a section to play well together, you follow the the lead 1st trumpet player. You listen and you imitate what s/he's doing as long as you're playing.
There's obviously an element of leadership that goes on when the music isn't playing which plays a critical part in section cohesiveness in general. And by no means are great musical leaders also great section leaders or vice versa. In my experience, it takes leaders of both types for a section to be successful. |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | In my experience, it takes leaders of both types for a section to be successful. |
BINGO !!!
I do not consider the lead as being the person playing 1st part. As the lead (of the section) I determine (regardless of the part I'm playing) Style, articulations etc... Now that does not mean that I don't listen to suggestions, I do, from everyone. We all have input, but I, as lead, have final say, sort of, because the final say comes from the conductor, who makes sure all fits together... That’s just how Drum and Bugle Corps operate. Sine that's my gig, that's what I do... Oh, and to make it even more interesting, if were playing an arrangement I did, I trump all... _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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nyctrumpeter Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2008 Posts: 1992 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Here are 2 things from Bobby Shew dot com that will tell you about lead playing and playing in a section. I'll post here one and the outline for the other as the second is very long. You can go to the clinic page of his website to read the rest. It's called developing the trumpet section. Enjoy!
Playing Lead Trumpet in the Big Band Setting
Lead vt: To direct the cause of, by going before or along with; to mark the way for; to be a way or means of bringing something to a particular condition or result.
A lead trumpet player has a number of responsibilities. The job consists of the following:
a) Interpret the music in the correct style.
b) Communicate effectively with other members of the section and the band.
c) Consistently interpret phrasing and style.
d) Have the strength to generate excitement through power when needed, and sensitivity
enough to play gently when necessary.
e) Be a good jazz soloist with a natural feel for various jazz styles.
f) Assign the music to ensure that parts are well matched, and evenly distributed so that
the job is fun for all members of the section.
There are many misconceptions regarding what is required to become a good lead trumpet player. The most prominent is that good high chops are the sole determining factor, or at least the most important one. It is true that maintaining a good high register, at least up to a consistent concert F above high C, is quite important. However, chops alone will never determine whether or not a person will be in demand by road and studio bands.
The single most important characteristic of a good lead player is feeling. The lead player who can play the notes with good control and still emit a loose, relaxed, and swinging feeling with high energy when called for will help the band swing as a group. A good drummer and a good lead player are essential elements in the make-up of a good band. When these two players can swing and work together, the entire band will swing, as they will be able to carry lesser players along until they learn to listen and swing as well. Jazz soloists who have some chops will make better lead players by knowing the importance of feeling the music in good time and developing melodic lines, and understanding chord structures as the chart progresses.
Aspiring lead players can also benefit from learning to play drums. Naturally, they do not need a full course on drumming. Start with a ride cymbal alone, then add hi-hat, left hand (stick to snare, toms), and finally add the bass drum. It isn't as easy as it appears and will definitely help you appreciate good drummers. This helped me years ago, and I still find an occasional moment to sit down at the drums for enjoyment and learning. Each drummer has his or her own personality and style, and you must learn to listen very closely so you can play with the same feeling that they establish. If you don't, you'll find yourself fighting the beat, and this will eventually wear down your chops.
When I am playing lead in a big band, I listen to the drums. My attention is on the ride cymbal, and then I listen for the hi-hat, which offsets the ride cymbal feeling. If a drummer is free with time, as in the style of Tony Williams or Elvin Jones, I have to listen for the overall melodic lines that he is creating. In this style, there is often a loose, broken, less obvious beat in the ride cymbal and the hi-hat. Good big band drummers more in the swing vein such as Mel Lewis, Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, and Jake Hanna play very melodically as well as rhythmically. Their playing is not difficult to decipher as far as the ability to hear the basic elements of time such as ride cymbal and hi-hat. It is important to listen, both melodically and rhythmically to the drummer.
Memorize charts so that you can close your eyes and play the lines as if they were solos. Glance down at phrases for reference and memorize a short section at first, then look back at the page for the next section. Play the charts often enough to know what lies ahead of you. If you listen to the line that the drummer plays instead of just tapping your foot, you'll find it a lot easier to make the entrance at the end of the break. (Buddy Rich used to change the tempo of the tune during a drum break of two to four bars just to see if the guys in the band were listening to him. Once I had been caught a couple of times, I learned how to listen to the drummer!)
When you are playing a melodic ensemble passage, play the line like a jazz solo that has been orchestrated. This will swing more than if you merely play all of the right notes somewhere close to the time. Some of my favorite lead players over the years were Sam Noto, Benny Bailey, Snooky Young, Chuck Findley, Buddy Childers, and Maynard Ferguson, because they are all excellent jazz players, and all give off a good feeling when they play lead parts.
If you're not a good soloist, you should sit down and address this area to be a better lead player and enhance your musical experience. There are many approaches to improvisation. The best and simplest that I recommend is Vol. 3: II-V7-I (working on chord spellings) of the Jamey Aebersold series. I also recommend the Aebersold volumes on "Jazz Standards" to learn the tunes everyone should know. There are many other Aebersold volumes available for all levels of ability. They help you assimilate the actual playing experience when it's not possible to sit in with a live group. In addition, I suggest that you play along and listen to a variety of jazz recordings, including some older Miles Davis, Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, and others.
As far as tying this in with lead playing, you should spend a considerable amount of time listening to recordings and live big bands. In doing so, focus your attention on the lead player and the drummer, and lis-ten to how closely they are playing together. Are they both playing the same time (listen to the ride cymbal)? Is the lead player loose and relaxed or are the eighth notes stiff and choppy? Is the lead player overly care-ful, or does he swing and generate excitement? This type of dedicated listening will increase your aware-ness of jazz styles, and will determine your eventual success as a lead player.
One final area to develop is the ability to know how to pace yourself. The lead player is very much a guide for the section and shouldn't play unison lines (they should be marked optional), and sustained lines in the lower register. In most cases, the rest of the section can cover such lines so the lead player can rest. This allows his energy to be conserved for those sections of the arrangement where he is most needed. It doesn't always help to trade notes (inverting the chord voicing or exchanging notes with another in the section), because this can cause the embouchure to spread, making it even more difficult for the lead player to get back up into the upper register.
I hope that these thoughts will help developing trumpet players better fulfill the many challenges which come with playing lead in a big band. My best to you as you learn and grow!
About the author: Bobby Shew is known as one of the greatest lead and jazz trumpet players in the business today. Shew has performed with the big bands of Tommy Dorsey, Woody Herman, Buddy Rich, Toshiko Akiyoshi, and Louie Bellson. He has done combo work with Horace Silver, Art Pepper, and Bud Shank. He has also sustained a jazz and studio career in Los Angeles. Currently he spends a great deal of time on the road as a soloist, teacher, and clinician. He is a Yamaha artist/clinician.
-----------------------------------
DEVELOPING THE TRUMPET SECTION
1. Basics to a successful section.
1. Ability to work as a team.
1. Ego-loss vs. confidence
2. Learning to listen with your soul.
3. Mental attitude re: learning.
4. Personal goals vs. the job.
5. Personal ethics vs. Group ethics.
2. Hats (individual specific duties)
1. Lead player
1. Disbursement of power.
2. Relationship v/ sax, bone, rhythm sections.
3. Ability to communicate freely and honestly w/ section.
4. Quality of :
1. Sound
2. Phrasing/Time feel
3. Consistency
4. Flexibility
5. Taste
2. Support players
1. Responsibility to-wards book
2. Respect for:
1. Lead player
2. Other section players.
3. Leader
4. Self
3. Patience re: moving up/"big chance".
4. Complete understanding of lead player's hat.
3. Sectional developmental activities
1. Practicing
1. With the rhythm section
2. Playing the book w/out rhythm.
3. Recording sectionals for analysis.
4. Individual work on trouble areas (personal responsibility).
2. Rotation
1. Passing parts so that each member grows as a team.
2. Giving everyone some jazz to play so-growth can occur.
3. Trying different styles.
3. Precision
1. Marking parts properly.
2. Pacing of lead player.
3. Blend
1. Pitch
2. Levels of intensity
3. Mutes
4. Flugels
4. Selecting the right guy for the job.
4. Learning/Experience
1. Listening to live bands.
2. " " records.
3. Private study
4. Practical experience. |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yep ! _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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