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dr_trumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Someone once said, "You can't get blood from a turnip." Just something to consider, which was advanced several pages ago by RazeontheRocks, if memory serves.
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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fraserhutch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 2548
Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, come on now, Lloyd.
It's one thing to take three weeks to deliver something. It's a total other thing to take three weeks to issue a refund.
Now, it *is* true that this arrangement belongs between JH and Forrest, and they may be privy to arrangements that we aren't aware about. it is also possible, As Dr Lilly points our, that JH is having money flow issues. None of
However this type of nonsense apologist drivel serves no purpose.
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trumpetchops
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I know I shouldn't write this:
At this point JH might as well burn him for the money.
His reputation is already gone with the people that don't like him. Even if the money was refunded tomorrow, Wildman wouldn't like him any better.
The people that do like him will continue to like him regardless.
One side will come on here and state their case and the other will do the same and all the same people will follow and JH will get to keep the money.
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Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpetchops wrote: | I know I shouldn't write this:
At this point JH might as well burn him for the money.
His reputation is already gone with the people that don't like him. Even if the money was refunded tomorrow, Wildman wouldn't like him any better.
The people that do like him will continue to like him regardless.
One side will come on here and state their case and the other will do the same and all the same people will follow and JH will get to keep the money. |
Unfortunately you are right. |
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fraserhutch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 2548
Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I don't even think the majority of the people fall into either category, Joe.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with doing business with JH, as long as you do so with your eyes open. And call a spade a spade.
That is why I fully endorse and defend the existence of these types of threads. Draw your own conclusions from them, but don't whitewash them.
It is most likely that JH is not out to maliciously steal people's money. He may just not be the best businessman with respect to actually fulfilling orders. That's all fine and dandy as long as one is aware of the potential pitfalls when placing the order.
I don't share Wildman;'s conclusion as to the character of JH, but please don't try and tell the rest of this this is business as usual here. Anywhere else and this would be in small claims court.
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trumpetchops
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Before I get killed here, my post is half truth and half a joke.
You can decide which is which
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Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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butxifxnot
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 2353
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Jason definitely wouldn't do that. I don't think JH really cares terribly what is said about him negatively. He should, but I don't think he does.
Caveat emptor. I share fraserhutch's sentiments.
As a sidenote: I just saw some of Jason's video clips for the first time (besides the Medusa). He's pretty beastly on the trumpet, man.
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lmf
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2190
Location: Indiana USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| fraserhutch wrote: | Oh, come on now, Lloyd.
It's one thing to take three weeks to deliver something. It's a total other thing to take three weeks to issue a refund.
Now, it *is* true that this arrangement belongs between JH and Forrest, and they may be privy to arrangements that we aren't aware about. it is also possible, As Dr Lilly points our, that JH is having money flow issues. None of
However this type of nonsense apologist drivel serves no purpose. |
frashutch,
Perhaps, you have forgotten that those who buy from JH already know the purchasing guidelines and return policy. I believe "cash refunds" is something JH has not done in the past at least from what others are saying. I agree those of us in TH have bantered this matter around, but we ought to start counting the days when Forrest and JH agreed to the refund and not when the first complaints were made at the start of this thread.
I'm not seeking to apologize for JH nor would I probably purchase from him due to his policies and business model. However, I don't see the slowness of the "refund process" to be "out of the ordinary" if Forrest and JH only came to terms regarding a refund on or around May 12th. If that time period is when the refund was promised to Forrest by JH, it has not been that many days when you factor in Sundays and the Memorial Day holiday.
I agree other vendors would refund more quickly than JH, but apparently he is doing it on his time schedule which may hurt his reputation as a business person. Even with his business model and sales/returns policy, I believe others will continue to choose JH for custom instruments and nothing said in the TH forum will change that.
I think your argument of "apologetic drivel serving no purpose" is no more unrealistic than your own argument especially in the light of the fact that JH normally has not given "cash refunds" before this situation. I believe before he would accept return of a custom-built trumpet from an unsatisfied customer to be credited for a future purchase. Is that not implied in the purchase information and return policy to potential customers? We may consider that policy to be flawed or not adequate, but the purchaser knows it up front when they send JH money in advance.
Now whether or not JH is bankrupt and is unable to send the refund to Forrest is another matter? It is something JH will have to address otherwise it is only speculation on our part. I can why people have that opinion though?
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Lloyd,
You are absolutely right. It is totally unreasonable for someone who paid in good faith, kept his part of the contract even when the seller didn't keep his part of the contract, to expect a timely refund when HIS horn was sold. (until Jason pays for the horn it was still being sold on Forrest's behalf, so this really isn't a refund, is it?)
We all know that PayPall refunds take months and months to process.  |
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ldwoods
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 1843
Location: Lake Charles, LA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Just to remind all the apologists, we do have knowledge of when the refund was supposed to happen.
Either in this thread, PM, or an email, I do seem to recall that forrest stated that Jason committed to provide the refund the following week. The time line for the refund is not some ambiguous open-ended contractual technicality that is open for interpretation or debate.
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Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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lmf
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2190
Location: Indiana USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | Lloyd,
You are absolutely right. It is totally unreasonable for someone who paid in good faith, kept his part of the contract even when the seller didn't keep his part of the contract, to expect a timely refund when HIS horn was sold. (until Jason pays for the horn it was still being sold on Forrest's behalf, so this really isn't a refund, is it?)
We all know that PayPall refunds take months and months to process. |
Little Rusty,
Even with your "play on words" as to the "unreasonable" expectations as you described between "buyer and seller" this continues to be a matter between Forrest and JH. All of us want Forrest to receive a refund soon, but it does not appear anything we say to "cajole" JH is going to force him to process the refund more promptly. Forrest can take whatever legal approach he desires in this matter be it Pen Pal or whatever if the time period hasn't elapsed to do so. If it is too late to do so, he can pursue other legal means should he choose to do so.
From what I have read in TH, it is not likely this matter will detract those who support JH from purchasing from him in the future. It may cause others not to deal with JH. Perhaps JH has enough business so as not to be concerned about others going elsewhere for their custom trumpets.
Those who do not like JH's business practices are free to purchase custom trumpets, flugels and cornets elsewhere from other builders whom they trust?
Isn't that the nature of free enterprise anyway? It appears that there are several other custom builders of trumpets of similar or better quailtv.
I am under the impression that all the "cajoling of JH" in the TH forum does not appear to be moving the refund more quickly. JH is going to do what he is going to do? He may have enough business now, but that may not always be the situation due to this matter.
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I was a little to subtle. I feel that your apologetics excusing Jason's slow response are absurd.
You missed the point on PayPal, not Pen Pal  . It only takes a couple of minutes to put a payment into PayPal and refund Forrest's money.
There is no need for weeks and weeks of time, holiday and weekends not withstanding, to return the money realized by the sale of Forrest's trumpet. |
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lmf
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2190
Location: Indiana USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | I guess I was a little to subtle. I feel that your apologetics excusing Jason's slow response are absurd.
You missed the point on PayPal, not Pen Pal . It only takes a couple of minutes to put a payment into PayPal and refund Forrest's money.
There is no need for weeks and weeks of time, holiday and weekends not withstanding, to return the money realized by the sale of Forrest's trumpet. |
Little Rusty,
Maybe you are doing your best to persuade JH to issue a more prompt refund to Forrest? How is that working for you?
It appears JH will release the refund to Forrest when he is ready to do so and not because of what we say here?
The market for "custom trumpets" will make or break JH not what we say here. Why he is hesitating, I do not know, nor do I understand? Most would say it would hurt future sales, but JH has faithful supporters. Not sure what his potential base of customers are thinking?
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
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Retlaw
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 3263
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| lmf wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | I guess I was a little to subtle. I feel that your apologetics excusing Jason's slow response are absurd.
You missed the point on PayPal, not Pen Pal . It only takes a couple of minutes to put a payment into PayPal and refund Forrest's money.
There is no need for weeks and weeks of time, holiday and weekends not withstanding, to return the money realized by the sale of Forrest's trumpet. |
Little Rusty,
Maybe you are doing your best to persuade JH to issue a more prompt refund to Forrest? How is that working for you?
It appears JH will release the refund to Forrest when he is ready to do so and not because of what we say here?
The market for "custom trumpets" will make or break JH not what we say here. Why he is hesitating, I do not know, nor do I understand? Most would say it would hurt future sales, but JH has faithful supporters. Not sure what his potential base of customers are thinking?
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
Hey Lloyd you have taken a pretty philosophical view of this and in a way it sort of puts things in perspective... I thing Forrest did that a long time ago...
Anyone who has been in business for themselves will know the issue of "cash flow"...... as I write after thirty years of doing my best to keep the customer happy I have a cash flow situation. The last couple of years has been difficult for all the little guys.... "whitewash" ? give me a break..... I am owed enough to cover all my debts but if you want it today..I am waiting on Joe and Fred to pay what they owe me...
Jason may have the money from Forrest's horn....well most of it...and it does take time for the money to actually be available in your account... but the bank could have first call on it. If I go over my "overdraft limit" I have a problem... I suspect that behind the scenes there are a lot of trumpet makers who are struggling to make ends meet. I have no idea what Jason's banking arrangements are and it is none of my business...but I don't buy spitefulness. And bankruptcy is just unhelpful scaremongering.
Forrest was worried a long time ago that he had burnt his bridges with Jason by making his "communication" issue into the biggest thread of all time..... but he did receive two trumpets....an effort was made. The plating was done outside... we all agree on that.... Jason was let down..... perhaps the thread actually pushed Jason to the point where he sent Forrest the flawed horn against his better judgement. If anyone thinks this thread can make a difference then perhaps we need to consider that it might not actually be helpful....
There is a theory that coaches who continually shout at their players from the sidelines don't not allow players to get into the "zone" and do their best...
I suspect this thread has done very little to help Forrest... IMF has spelt that out loud and clear and I think he is right. It appears that after the OP .... communication was established .....that had nothing to do with a single post other than Forrest's.
What are potential purchasers thinking... some will "wait and see"...some will "buy" ..... and some will say "no way".... about par for the course.
Walter |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| lmf wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | I guess I was a little to subtle. I feel that your apologetics excusing Jason's slow response are absurd.
You missed the point on PayPal, not Pen Pal . It only takes a couple of minutes to put a payment into PayPal and refund Forrest's money.
There is no need for weeks and weeks of time, holiday and weekends not withstanding, to return the money realized by the sale of Forrest's trumpet. |
Little Rusty,
Maybe you are doing your best to persuade JH to issue a more prompt refund to Forrest? How is that working for you?
It appears JH will release the refund to Forrest when he is ready to do so and not because of what we say here?
The market for "custom trumpets" will make or break JH not what we say here. Why he is hesitating, I do not know, nor do I understand? Most would say it would hurt future sales, but JH has faithful supporters. Not sure what his potential base of customers are thinking?
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
Lloyd,
Maybe you are doing your best to convince Forrest to walk away from this and forget about his money. How is that working for you?
I only take umbrage with the statement "However, I don't see the slowness of the 'refund process' to be 'out of the ordinary' if Forrest and JH only came to terms regarding a refund on or around May 12th. If that time period is when the refund was promised to Forrest by JH, it has not been that many days when you factor in Sundays and the Memorial Day holiday."
As I clearly pointed out, if Jason indeed has the money to send a check, then he can quickly issue a refund via PayPal, even on a holiday or weekend.
Pretty simple point. Not much to debate about it. No attempt to try to convince Jason of anything. Not making any apologizes for Jason either.
That said, I sincerely hope that Jason isn't hurting for money. Having been there myself I understand how it weighs on one.
We all know how patient Forrest appears to be based on this thread. Has anyone considered that perhaps he also is in dire financial straits? Perhaps the lack of the refund is something that is severely impacting his life.
Just a thought.
Peace. |
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dr_trumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Retlaw wrote: |
Anyone who has been in business for themselves will know the issue of "cash flow"...... as I write after thirty years of doing my best to keep the customer happy I have a cash flow situation. The last couple of years has been difficult for all the little guys.... "whitewash" ? give me a break..... I am owed enough to cover all my debts but if you want it today..I am waiting on Joe and Fred to pay what they owe me...
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Walter,
Most of what you wrote I can both understand and commiserate with in the current economy. The above is unfortunate for you, and I sure hope things turn around for you, but Jason is in a completely different boat in that his items are paid for before you ever see it. If we all could work like that, full payment before the product is delivered, we'd never have cash flow issues.
In this instance, however, the business model differs greatly from the norm, and that is what to me is most concerning. No other custom maker I know of demands full payment before the horn is done (did I misunderstand that in Harrelson's payment requirements?). So, if there is no money, Jason appears to be one of two things in holding Forrest's money (and the money that Jason is holding is Forrest's at this point, because the horn technically is still Forrest's as he has not had a refund paid. If the refund doesn't come within 30 days of the return, every court in America could and would convict JH of criminal conversion and interstate business fraud at that point):
1. JH is just being vindictive toward Forrest.
2. JH doesn't have the money, meaning most likely he is using current sales to fund the materials for past sales that have not been made. This does not bode well either.
I honestly don't know which it is. I do know that Forrest has the letter of the law on his side, and unfortunately, several rambling diatribes posted here as his greater witness to the issue.
It is troubling, and it is unfortunate for all involved. I hope it finds resolution soon, but I fear the worst at this point. How anyone could be loyal to a business that treats their customers like this is beyond me, but that is a personal statement. I don't expect anyone to agree.
I feel for Forrest, as his money is still in limbo. I feel worse for Jason, because no matter what, this is a bad, bad situation, and it just keeps getting worse the longer Forrest waits on his refund.
Best to you, Walter, for being a good man and stating in fair terms what you see!
AL
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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butxifxnot
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 2353
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Dr,
You left off a third option:
JH is procrastinating.
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"Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth |
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dr_trumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| butxifxnot wrote: | Dr,
You left off a third option:
JH is procrastinating. |
Good point. The why for that is likely point one, however. I never procrastinate with bills that are owed, unless I don't feel I really owe them.
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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forrest
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 695
Location: St Louis MO
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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I am hesitant to post more for fear of making a bad situation worse for all.
But, maybe today will be my lucky day. |
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dr_trumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| forrest wrote: | I am hesitant to post more for fear of making a bad situation worse for all.
But, maybe today will be my lucky day. |
I think I can say with absolute certainty that everyone here (regardless of alliances) would love for you to get your money back today, Forrest.
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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